Discussion:
ZipChip knocks out the No-Slot-Clock
(too old to reply)
Matthew Power
2017-04-12 00:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In experimenting with my //e, I have tried both the Transwarp and the ZipChip-4 accelerators. Transwarp works great. So does the Zip, but when I have the Zip installed the system does not see the no-slot clock from UltimateMicro. The NS-Clock Utility actually says 'no clock installed'. Anyone else come across this?
Michael J. Mahon
2017-04-12 00:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Matthew Power
In experimenting with my //e, I have tried both the Transwarp and the
ZipChip-4 accelerators. Transwarp works great. So does the Zip, but when
I have the Zip installed the system does not see the no-slot clock from
UltimateMicro. The NS-Clock Utility actually says 'no clock installed'.
Anyone else come across this?
It worked fine for me when I used a No-Slot Clock and an 8MHz ZipChip.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Matthew Power
2017-04-12 01:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
As a test, I just changed nothing other than pulling the ZipChip-4 out, putting a 65C02 chip back in, and the system now sees the No-Slot Clock again. Apple II Desktop sees it, AppleWorks, BeagleWrite, all see the clock. But none of them do when the Zip4 is installed. The Zip4 works great otherwise.
John Brooks
2017-04-12 01:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Matthew Power
As a test, I just changed nothing other than pulling the ZipChip-4 out, putting a 65C02 chip back in, and the system now sees the No-Slot Clock again. Apple II Desktop sees it, AppleWorks, BeagleWrite, all see the clock. But none of them do when the Zip4 is installed. The Zip4 works great otherwise.
The NSC relies on repeated memory ROM reads being uncached and appearing on the memory bus.

If your Zip-4 is configured to cache ROM accesses, it may be omitting some of the normal ROM accesses which would cause the NSC to stay locked and dormant.

Can you disable caching ROM accesses with the Zip4?

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Matthew Power
2017-04-12 12:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Brooks
The NSC relies on repeated memory ROM reads being uncached and appearing on the memory bus.
If your Zip-4 is configured to cache ROM accesses, it may be omitting some of the normal ROM accesses which would cause the NSC to stay locked and dormant.
Can you disable caching ROM accesses with the Zip4?
The only caching configuration I see in the Zip utilities is for the language card.
Michael J. Mahon
2017-04-12 14:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Matthew Power
Post by John Brooks
The NSC relies on repeated memory ROM reads being uncached and appearing
on the memory bus.
If your Zip-4 is configured to cache ROM accesses, it may be omitting
some of the normal ROM accesses which would cause the NSC to stay locked and dormant.
Can you disable caching ROM accesses with the Zip4?
The only caching configuration I see in the Zip utilities is for the language card.
Ah, that rings a bell. My NSC was under the EPROM on a slot card, and that
slot was set to "slow" in the configuration utility.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Jerome Vernet
2017-04-14 12:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Matthew Power
In experimenting with my //e, I have tried both the Transwarp and the ZipChip-4 accelerators. Transwarp works great. So does the Zip, but when I have the Zip installed the system does not see the no-slot clock from UltimateMicro. The NS-Clock Utility actually says 'no clock installed'. Anyone else come across this?
I have a NSC (original, in ROM socket, dead battery) and a Zip4, it
work, as far I set up once the time.

JV
Matthew Power
2017-04-16 02:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I think I have figured out that it is a software issue because the NSC works fine with the ZipChip as a processor when ESC is pressed to disable the faster speed.

But I haven't figured out how to apply software (ZipChip utilities) to make the NSC work when acceleration is applied.
John Brooks
2017-04-16 03:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Matthew Power
I think I have figured out that it is a software issue because the NSC works fine with the ZipChip as a processor when ESC is pressed to disable the faster speed.
But I haven't figured out how to apply software (ZipChip utilities) to make the NSC work when acceleration is applied.
If the zip chip has an option to disable acceleration when reading the joystick, try doing a BIT $C070 before reading the date/time and see if that works.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Matthew Power
2017-05-09 01:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Brooks
If the zip chip has an option to disable acceleration when reading the joystick, try doing a BIT $C070 before reading the date/time and see if that works.
I don't know how to do what you said yet.
James Davis
2017-05-09 08:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Mathew,

I have ZipChip Manuals. Do you?

Since the NSC functions at normal speed, but not at fast speed, you need to put it on a peripheral slot card that has to be slowed down to normal speed all the time to work properly itself. The manual says that running the (5.25 inch Floppy) Disk Controller card at high speed can damage the data written to floppy disks and it should be slowed down if one experiences this problem. I suggest you put the NSC on a slowed down Floppy Disk Controller card if that is possible.

James Davis
Matthew Power
2017-05-09 13:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Davis
Hi Mathew,
I have ZipChip Manuals. Do you?
I only can find the one for the 4mhz, not the 8mhz (I have both).
Michael J. Mahon
2017-05-09 15:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Matthew Power
Post by James Davis
Hi Mathew,
I have ZipChip Manuals. Do you?
I only can find the one for the 4mhz, not the 8mhz (I have both).
The two speeds are functionally identical.

The issue for the NSC is not the speed, but the cache. Unless the chip is
running at 1MHz, it's cache is enabled and the repeated ROM-space read
requests required to enable the NSC are satisfied by the chip's cache and
do not reach the NSC.

A Disk ][ Controller does not have a ROM compatible with the NSC, but a
3.5" controller usually does. The slot must be set to "slow" using the Zip
Chip configuration utility.

This incompatibility could also be fixed by adding a reference to the
paddle trigger, as John suggested, in the NSC driver.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Matthew Power
2017-05-10 00:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Michael J. Mahon
A Disk ][ Controller does not have a ROM compatible with the NSC, but a
3.5" controller usually does. The slot must be set to "slow" using the Zip
Chip configuration utility.
My 5.25 controller card does not have a compatible ROM as you said. I'm quite hesitant to try it on any other cards because back when I first posted this thread, I tried the only other matching chip I could find: on my Super Serial Card. No clock, and after returning back to original the Super Serial Card was dead. Those are cheap enough on ebay, and after getting a new SSC my ImageWriter II would only print out 00 00 00 00 00 00 on and on...

After much thrashing about it turned out that the cable from the SSC to the ImageWriter II also had some sort of internal damage. Replacing the cable restored my A2e back to pre-experiment.

I'm sure someone will laugh at my ineptitude and that's ok... I also see that it's dumb-funny :-)

But I'm really hesitant about moving that NSC around now...

Oh, I almost forgot.. that same NSC? Back in it's original location on the motherboard and working fine... Unless I have a Zip Chip installed, lol.
James Davis
2017-05-10 01:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sounds like you really need to modify some low level part of the Apple OS or the NS.CLOCK.SYSTEM to poke the paddle initialization soft-switch at regular intervals. Maybe John Brooks can tell you how to do it in his spare time if you ask him to. He is a really nice guy who likes to help solve such problem when he can. Alternatively, the guys maintaining AppleWin might know how to do it; the NSC drivers work on its emulation at high speed; but its all software, not hardware.
Matthew Power
2017-05-10 02:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sounds like you really need to modify some low level part of the Apple OS or the NS.CLOCK.SYSTEM to poke the paddle initialization soft-switch at regular intervals. Maybe John Brooks...
Been running a couple of tests John asked for, and I'm learning from all you guys, thanks!
Michael J. Mahon
2017-05-10 06:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Matthew Power
Post by Michael J. Mahon
A Disk ][ Controller does not have a ROM compatible with the NSC, but a
3.5" controller usually does. The slot must be set to "slow" using the Zip
Chip configuration utility.
My 5.25 controller card does not have a compatible ROM as you said. I'm
quite hesitant to try it on any other cards because back when I first
posted this thread, I tried the only other matching chip I could find: on
my Super Serial Card. No clock, and after returning back to original the
Super Serial Card was dead. Those are cheap enough on ebay, and after
getting a new SSC my ImageWriter II would only print out 00 00 00 00 00 00 on and on...
After much thrashing about it turned out that the cable from the SSC to
the ImageWriter II also had some sort of internal damage. Replacing the
cable restored my A2e back to pre-experiment.
I'm sure someone will laugh at my ineptitude and that's ok... I also see
that it's dumb-funny :-)
But I'm really hesitant about moving that NSC around now...
Since you've determined that the problem was not the result of moving the
ROM, you can be confident that trying another location is safe.

Just take care to discharge any static charge on your body by touching the
power supply case, and be careful when removing and inserting chips into
sockets.

Don't worry--that's why they're socketed. ;-)
Post by Matthew Power
Oh, I almost forgot.. that same NSC? Back in it's original location on
the motherboard and working fine... Unless I have a Zip Chip installed, lol.
And there's a good chance you can have both working!

BTW, for it to have a chance of working under the SSC ROM, you'll need to
set the slot the SSC is in to "slow" in the Zip Chip configuration utility.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
C***@mac.com
2017-05-10 09:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I had the same issue with the ultimate micro NSC in my IIc Plus which is essentially a IIc with a 4mhz ZIP chip. The utilities won't work at 4mhz but will at 1mhz. I found that when I slowed the processor, ran the utilities to set the clock and then restarted at 4mhz it worked fine.
Matthew Power
2017-05-10 23:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Setting the clock when slow and the speeding up does work for me, but it doesn't hold when the machine powers down.

Gave me the idea to try this... it KINDA gives me what I would like, but not exactly. If I boot the IIe followed by ESC to disable the chip, it boots into A2Desktop and then I can mouse the Selector and run the copy of FlipZip I put in there. System speeds up and all is well.

I'd really like to find a way around those steps if possible. Besides the FlipZip has some silly "Well buddy the chip's on again..." <KEYPRESS> message that I wish would go away.
Matthew Power
2017-08-17 00:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Reviving a slightly older thread of mine because of a discovery I made today. My CFFA3000 is out for repairs so I got a MicroDrive/Turbo from ReactiveMicro to play with in the meantime.

After loading my images onto the MicroDrive, I found that the no-slot clock works perfectly all the time.

When using the CFFA3000, the no-slot clock doesn't read at all unless I boot the Zip Chip with <ESC> to slow the IIe to 1 mhz and then run the utility to speed back up to 8 mhz. Then the no-slot clock works fine.

When loading the exact same (A2 Desktop) images from the Micro/Drive, the no-slot clock works all the time without fuss.

Both cards were installed in slot 7.

I don't know what is happening on a machine level, but I thought it was interesting so I've shared.
James Davis
2017-05-09 18:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Matthew,
Post by Matthew Power
Post by James Davis
Hi Mathew,
I have ZipChip Manuals. Do you?
I only can find the one for the 4mhz, not the 8mhz (I have both).
My "(Z) ZIPCHIP Instruction Manual" does not indicate whether it is for the 4 MHz or the 8 MHZ ZipChip, but since it came with my 8 MHz ZipChip, I am assuming it is the 8 MHz Manual. [But there may be no difference. I believe MJM said he has had both chips, maybe he has the two manuals and can tell us if there is a difference. (Although, he may have given them away with his latest donation.)]

Have you searched online (or on Asimov) for one?

If you cannot find one for your 8 MHz ZipChip, let me know, and I will scan the one I have, and post it on Asimov (for you and for everyone). I also have a printout of the "ZIPCHIP INSTRUCTION MANUAL" from the diskette that came with it; and, a printout of the "Zip Tools Documentation" that I will include.

Yours truly,

James Davis
Michael J. Mahon
2017-05-09 22:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Davis
Hi Matthew,
Post by Matthew Power
Post by James Davis
Hi Mathew,
I have ZipChip Manuals. Do you?
I only can find the one for the 4mhz, not the 8mhz (I have both).
My "(Z) ZIPCHIP Instruction Manual" does not indicate whether it is for
the 4 MHz or the 8 MHZ ZipChip, but since it came with my 8 MHz ZipChip,
I am assuming it is the 8 MHz Manual. [But there may be no difference.
I believe MJM said he has had both chips, maybe he has the two manuals
and can tell us if there is a difference. (Although, he may have given
them away with his latest donation.)]
Have you searched online (or on Asimov) for one?
If you cannot find one for your 8 MHz ZipChip, let me know, and I will
scan the one I have, and post it on Asimov (for you and for everyone). I
also have a printout of the "ZIPCHIP INSTRUCTION MANUAL" from the
diskette that came with it; and, a printout of the "Zip Tools
Documentation" that I will include.
Yours truly,
James Davis
There is no difference in the manuals. The 8MHz chip is just twice as fast.


The real info is on the utilities disk as a text file.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Hugh Hood
2017-05-09 19:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Matthew,

I don't know if this will help you, but at one time I had (10) 8 MHz Zip
Chips, and almost all of those were paired with No Slot Clocks in my
Enhanced IIe's. In each case, they were installed under one of the
motherboard ROM's.

They worked great together, with the only caveat being that I had to slow
the Zip Chip down to 1 MHz in order to _set_ the time.

So, I don't know if the 4 MHz chip (rather than an 8 MHz chip) is the
culprit, or whether it could be something else.

I never had to install my NSC's on one of the peripheral slot cards. YMMV.





Hugh Hood
Post by Matthew Power
In experimenting with my //e, I have tried both the Transwarp and the
ZipChip-4 accelerators. Transwarp works great. So does the Zip, but when I
have the Zip installed the system does not see the no-slot clock from
UltimateMicro. The NS-Clock Utility actually says 'no clock installed'. Anyone
else come across this?
Loading...