Discussion:
ADTPro VSDRIVE
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Bobbi
2017-09-16 03:39:43 UTC
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I have been playing with the VSDRIVE virtual drive function of ADTPro. I installed CiderPress (using Wine to run it under Linux) and used it to create a blank 32MB ProDOS image and to copy apps from various ProDOS floppy images. Generally speaking it works very well, although some programs don't seem to like it too much.

AppleWriter //e seems to run fine under VSDRIVE, as does Appleworks 1.3. However AppleWorks 2.0 and 3.0 both fail in different ways. AW2.0 crashes to the monitor during startup and AW3.0 seems to work until you attempt to load a file. There are a few other programs I tried that crash to the monitor when started from VSDRIVE.

Has anyone else had any luck with AW2.0/3.0 in this configuration? I am running with an Apple IIe (unenhanced), with extended 80 col, SSC and Disk II card.

The documentation suggests that all ProDOS programs should work OK with the VSDRIVE driver which replaces the Disk II driver in memory. (Most programs will not work with VSDRIVE.LOW of course.)

Is there a list of programs known to work on VSDRIVE somewhere?
Hugh Hood
2017-09-16 04:58:57 UTC
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Post by Bobbi
AppleWriter //e seems to run fine under VSDRIVE, as does Appleworks
1.3. However AppleWorks 2.0 and 3.0 both fail in different ways.
AW2.0 crashes to the monitor during startup and AW3.0 seems to work
until you attempt to load a file. There are a few other programs I
tried that crash to the monitor when started from VSDRIVE.
Has anyone else had any luck with AW2.0/3.0 in this configuration? I
am running with an Apple IIe (unenhanced), with extended 80 col, SSC
and Disk II card.
Bobbi,

IIRC (it's been a long, long, time) AppleWorks 3.0 and 2.x had a problem
with disk devices being assigned to Slots 1 and 2, which are
traditionally assigned to printers.

There were patches that fixed this 'bug', and I think John Link's
'SuperPatch' (from Quality Computers) contained this patch for both 3.0
and also 2.x.

If I have a chance this weekend, I'll attempt to research this and
report back.

As you know, VSDRIVE presents as a Slot 2 drive, so that might explain
the issue you're seeing.





Hugh Hood
Bobbi
2017-09-16 05:05:44 UTC
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I wonder how hard it would be to modify VSDRIVE to use slot 4 or 5 ...
Hugh Hood
2017-09-16 17:47:23 UTC
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Bobbi,

I completed my 'research' and I don't think that your VSDrive
identifying as a Slot 2 device is causing your problems with AppleWorks
2.x and 3.0.

While those versions of AppleWorks *do* have an issue with drives in
slots 1 & 2, apparently this only affects using the printer, not the drive.

For the sake of completeness, since I brought it up, here is the
AppleWorks 3.0 Slot 1/2 disk drive issue and patch:


CAVEAT: This is *NOT* an issue with AppleWorks 5.1.


------- START: JOHN LINK'S AW 3.0 PATCH -----------------------------


Patch 3: Allow Use of Slot 1/2 Printers with Slot 1/2 Pseudo Disks
------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not install this patch unless you are having trouble accessing your
printer from AppleWorks.

Some software and firmware tell the computer that you have a disk device
in slot one or two, even though the device is physically located in some
other slot. (For example, some non-Apple SCSI cards use on-board
firmware to set up "pseudo disks" for storage space that exceeds the 64
megabytes that ProDOS can address in a single slot.)

As part of its bootup sequence, AppleWorks examines all slots for disk
drives. When it finds one, it will not print to the associated slot
because printer initialization would cause the whole system to reboot.
An exception is made for slot seven, which can be used to print over an
AppleTalk network accessed through this slot, even when AppleTalk is
also the boot slot.

This patch allows the same exception AppleWorks makes for AppleTalk to
be made for other "pseudo-slotted" disk devices.

We repeat: Only install this patch if you cannot access your printer
from AppleWorks. You should de-install this patch if your computer
reboots when you try to print. However, those few users who need this
patch will find it valuable because it lets them use their pseudo
slotted drives and printers at the same time.

Follow these steps to install this patch:

1. Insert the AppleWorks disk with the file APLWORKS.SYSTEM in Drive 1.

2. Type the following:

POKE 768,128
POKE 769,10
BSAVE APLWORKS.SYSTEM,TSYS,A$300,L2,B$AE3

Enter the following to cancel this patch and return AppleWorks to its
original condition:

POKE 768,189
POKE 769,162
BSAVE APLWORKS.SYSTEM,TSYS,A$300,L2,B$AE3


------- END: JOHN LINK'S PATCH -----------------------------


Similarly, from David Finnigan's magical glimpse into glory days of
GEnie old, here's the same issue (and patch) discussed, but for
AppleWorks 2.1.

<http://www.macgui.com/usenet/?group=119&id=43710>





Hugh Hood
Post by Hugh Hood
Bobbi,
IIRC (it's been a long, long, time) AppleWorks 3.0 and 2.x had a problem
with disk devices being assigned to Slots 1 and 2, which are
traditionally assigned to printers.
There were patches that fixed this 'bug', and I think John Link's
'SuperPatch' (from Quality Computers) contained this patch for both 3.0
and also 2.x.
If I have a chance this weekend, I'll attempt to research this and
report back.
Bobbi
2017-09-16 19:57:14 UTC
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Thanks for your research Hugh! I think you are right and this is not actually the problem I am running into. Incidentally, my configuration has SSC in physical slot 2, and VSDRIVE creates pseudo slot 1 devices. I may play around with some other AppleWorks versions during the weekend and see what works and what doesn't.
Bobbi
2017-09-17 17:44:45 UTC
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I have been playing with VSDRIVE and Appleworks some more. I have AW 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 (all taken from apple2online.com) installed on a 32MB ProDOS image, served via VSDRIVE. I am using ADT 2.0.2 and ProDOS 2.4.1. Hardware is *unenhanced* IIe.

All three versions of AW start most of the time (although occasionally they hang during startup or get stuck on a screen requesting the program disk.) For AW 2.0 it repeatedly crashes on startup if it has been run previously, but almost always starts on a clean (OA-Ctrl-Reset) boot. I had AW 3.0 working quite nicely, for long enough to write a reasonably long letter (8KB), save it and print it to disk. However in general the behaviour is very flaky. AW frequently fails to load files from VSDRIVE, either freezing mid-way or giving an error message. Sometimes the same file can be loaded again after resetting the Apple II. Restarting ADT server (on Linux) doesn't seem to make any difference. The ADT server logs look fine (no apparent errors). When things freeze up, the Apple just never makes any more requests. It looks like a client-side (Apple II VSDRIVE driver) issue. Most other ProDOS programs such as AppleWriter II, CopyIIPlus etc. work fine with VSDRIVE, so it seems to be an issue that manifests itself with ProDOS.

The strange thing is that the misbehaviour doesn't seem to be repeatable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I can't really find a pattern to the behaviour.

Does anyone else have any experience with running AppleWorks on VSDRIVE? If so, which version ... and does it work reliably?

I am thinking to try ADT 2.0.1 (earlier version) and see if it makes any difference.
Hugh Hood
2017-09-17 19:26:25 UTC
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Post by Bobbi
For AW 2.0 it repeatedly crashes on startup if it has been run
previously, but almost always starts on a clean (OA-Ctrl-Reset)
boot.
Bobbi,

Your method approach to solving the problem seems to be working, so keep
at it.

In the meantime, concerning AppleWorks 2.0, you may want to consider
downloading and using AppleWorks 2.1 instead, which fixed quite a few
bugs that existed in 2.0, and also added a few new features. The system
requirements are the same.

You can get it here:

<ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/productivity/integrated/appleworks/v2.1/>

or here:

<http://www.macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=1979&keywords=appleworks>

For the record, 3.0 was a *BIG* step up from 2.1, so if you have the
system requirements for it, I'd go with 3.0.

If you ever enhance your IIe, and get a memory card, you'll be blown
away by 5.1.




Hugh Hood
Bobbi
2017-09-18 03:39:29 UTC
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Thanks again Hugh. I gave 2.1 a whirl and it seems to work as well as 2.0 at least! Bug fixes are always welcome!

I have been trying to find out the minimum requirements for various versions of Appleworks - v3.0 comes on ProDOS v2 disks which require enhanced //e, but I replaced PRODOS with the one from 2.4.1 and I seem to be able to run 3.0 without any issue. I know 5.1 needs enhanced //e, but not sure how much memory is required. Is there a FAQ?
Hugh Hood
2017-09-19 01:56:36 UTC
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I know [AppleWorks] 5.1 needs enhanced //e, but not sure how much memory is required. Is there a FAQ?
From Page 3 of the AppleWorks 5 Delta Manual at:

<ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/applications/appleworks/AppleWorks5DeltaManualOCRPlus.pdf>

Requirements
------------

To use AppleWorks 5, you must have at least:

- an Enhanced Apple IIe,
- 256K of expansion memory, and
- a 3.5" disk drive


Actually, a 3.5" disk drive isn't required, provided you are running
from a hard drive (VSDrive will do) or a large RAM disk.

The IIe Enhancement is necessary in order to execute the 65C02
instructions (such as STZ and BRA) in the code, and also to display
mousetext, which makes the menus so much more visually appealing. You
can, however, turn the mousetext displays off from within AppleWorks if
you don't care for them.

I don't know what an enhancement kit runs these days, but I do know that
just last year I gave away a half dozen Enhanced IIe's, all with at
least 1 MEG of RAM, so it might just be cheaper to buy one that's
already enhanced.




Hugh Hood
Polymorph
2017-09-19 04:11:27 UTC
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Post by Hugh Hood
I know [AppleWorks] 5.1 needs enhanced //e, but not sure how much memory is required. Is there a FAQ?
<ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/applications/appleworks/AppleWorks5DeltaManualOCRPlus.pdf>
Requirements
------------
- an Enhanced Apple IIe,
- 256K of expansion memory, and
- a 3.5" disk drive
Actually, a 3.5" disk drive isn't required, provided you are running
from a hard drive (VSDrive will do) or a large RAM disk.
This is timely for me as I tried to install AW 5.1 the other day on an enhanced //e with a hard disk and my shiny new FastChip //e with emulated RamWorks and RamFactor cards.

The trouble I encountered was how to install it with no 3.5" floppy drives as the installation media appears to be 3.5" only.

I have yet to find a simple solution involving just the //e. I'll probably end up connecting the hard disk to my IIgs and installing it using the IIgs' resources (8mb RAM + CFFA3000). Erm, now that I think of it, why don't I just chuck the CFFA3000 into the //e. Doh! Nothing to see here...move along. ;-)

But for those without access to a CFFA3000 or IIgs (with 3.5" floppies) but do have the RAM, is there an easy means to install to a hard disk on a //e with no 3.5" floppies? I guess you could always install AW 5.1 inside an emulator and transfer the 32Mb image over using ADTPro? But this would be sloooow (I've done this before and it takes about 20-30 mins for a 32Mb image to transfer).

Anyone got any other suggestions?

Seems like a bit of an oversight really if you are going to support the //e, as I expect that there are *many* more //e's with no 3.5" floppies than there are with them.

Cheers,
Mike
Hugh Hood
2017-09-19 15:21:22 UTC
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[To Group: Apologies for the double post - my clock reset to 1969]


Mike,

Due to complaints from customers with no 3.5" drives, Quality Computers
actually released an AppleWorks 5.0 Install set on 5.25" floppies.

It is here:

<ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/productivity/integrated/appl
eworks/v5.0_quality_computers/>


But, that's only half the battle. You still need to apply the 5.1 update
(bugs corrected/new features added), and I haven't yet seen that in a 5.25"
floppy format. I'll keep looking.





Hugh Hood
Post by Polymorph
But for those without access to a CFFA3000 or IIgs (with 3.5" floppies) but do
have the RAM, is there an easy means to install to a hard disk on a //e with
no 3.5" floppies? I guess you could always install AW 5.1 inside an emulator
and transfer the 32Mb image over using ADTPro? But this would be sloooow (I've
done this before and it takes about 20-30 mins for a 32Mb image to transfer).
Anyone got any other suggestions?
Seems like a bit of an oversight really if you are going to support the //e,
as I expect that there are *many* more //e's with no 3.5" floppies than there
are with them.
Cheers,
Mike
Bobbi
2017-09-19 16:52:01 UTC
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The way I would try to do this is to use Ciderpress to copy the files from 800K floppy to a ProDOS HDD image and then to use VSDRIVE to run AW5.1 from the image. I have installed quite a few things from 800K images that way (my IIe has Disk II drives only.)

I may end up 'enhancing' my IIe. I think the kit runs $25 or so from Reactivemicro. Anyhow I still don't have the memory for AW5.1, so I guess I will stick with 3.0 regardless.
Polymorph
2017-09-20 07:41:54 UTC
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Post by Bobbi
The way I would try to do this is to use Ciderpress to copy the files from 800K floppy to a ProDOS HDD image and then to use VSDRIVE to run AW5.1 from the image. I have installed quite a few things from 800K images that way (my IIe has Disk II drives only.)
I may end up 'enhancing' my IIe. I think the kit runs $25 or so from Reactivemicro. Anyhow I still don't have the memory for AW5.1, so I guess I will stick with 3.0 regardless.
Ah yes! <Head slap!> I have done this in the past also. I forgot all about the VSDrive component of ADTPro.

I have my Raspberry Pi hooked up to my //e, so I can add the drive image onto that and run VSDrive.

Thanks for the reminder. :-)

Cheers,
Mike

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