Discussion:
new ProDOS ports
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qkumba
2015-07-14 20:55:21 UTC
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New life for old games.

Conan (also fits on one side of a floppy now)
Jungle Hunt
Karateka
Swashbuckler
Mr. Do (in Asimov incoming, the currently available version is not compatible with all hardware)

For Virtual ][ users, remove the clock card first from slot 7.
For Sweet16 users, the issue with Karateka is still unsolved.
sicklittlemonkey
2015-07-16 11:33:45 UTC
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Post by qkumba
New life for old games.
Cool!

Did you do these in a generic way - like the RWTS replacement Oliver and I were discussing over in c.e.a2?

Cheers,
Nick.
qkumba
2015-07-17 00:02:45 UTC
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Post by sicklittlemonkey
Did you do these in a generic way - like the RWTS replacement Oliver and I were discussing over in c.e.a2?
No, they are customised specifically for each game.
I captured all of the data that are read, consolidated as much as I could, saved the blocks into files, and then replaced the RWTS calls with ProDOS-specific ones, where necessary. For something like Joust or Moon Patrol, I even managed to convert a multi-load game into a single-load one, without loss of fidelity.
The result is a collection of small files, not one monolithic one in each case.
I find this to be more elegant, though it takes a lot more work. In some cases, it's also the only way, because ProDOS can't always remain resident alongside the game (e.g. Mr Do).
Steve Nickolas
2015-07-17 01:01:59 UTC
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Post by qkumba
Post by sicklittlemonkey
Did you do these in a generic way - like the RWTS replacement Oliver and I were discussing over in c.e.a2?
No, they are customised specifically for each game.
I captured all of the data that are read, consolidated as much as I
could, saved the blocks into files, and then replaced the RWTS calls
with ProDOS-specific ones, where necessary. For something like Joust or
Moon Patrol, I even managed to convert a multi-load game into a
single-load one, without loss of fidelity.
The result is a collection of small files, not one monolithic one in each case.
I find this to be more elegant, though it takes a lot more work. In
some cases, it's also the only way, because ProDOS can't always remain
resident alongside the game (e.g. Mr Do).
I use basically the same approach. The main differences between qkumba's
ProDOS ports and mine are that I integrate the first stage of the loader
into the SYSTEM file rather than simply use a generic SYSTEM file that
will load anything (though I do have such a file, and it works just as
well with qkumba's cracks as his own loader), plus I usually use the file
type $F1 instead of BIN for my overlays. (My code is pretty dreadful,
btw.)

-uso.
qkumba
2015-07-17 15:48:25 UTC
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Post by Steve Nickolas
I use basically the same approach. The main differences between qkumba's
ProDOS ports and mine are that I integrate the first stage of the loader
into the SYSTEM file rather than simply use a generic SYSTEM file that
will load anything (though I do have such a file, and it works just as
well with qkumba's cracks as his own loader), plus I usually use the file
type $F1 instead of BIN for my overlays. (My code is pretty dreadful,
btw.)
I use BIN because the files are coming from DOS disks, so I don't change anything.
The SYSTEM file exists for the same reason - just a way to boot the BIN, so I don't have to change anything.
Steve Nickolas
2015-07-17 18:21:26 UTC
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Post by qkumba
Post by Steve Nickolas
I use basically the same approach. The main differences between qkumba's
ProDOS ports and mine are that I integrate the first stage of the loader
into the SYSTEM file rather than simply use a generic SYSTEM file that
will load anything (though I do have such a file, and it works just as
well with qkumba's cracks as his own loader), plus I usually use the file
type $F1 instead of BIN for my overlays. (My code is pretty dreadful,
btw.)
I use BIN because the files are coming from DOS disks, so I don't change anything.
The SYSTEM file exists for the same reason - just a way to boot the BIN, so I don't have to change anything.
Makes sense. I on the other hand pull them in from outside using
Ciderpress, and DOS 3.3 isn't involved in the process. So I usually give
the first file type $FF and the others $F1, and it's as easy for me to do
that as to give them all $06.

The wrapper I use with Exomizer produces type BAS, corresponding to how
Exomizer itself outputs for the C64 - and for me that's usually easier
since I use RDOS for some compressed game disks (since it's faster and has
less overhead) and while you can BLOAD stuff with RDOS, you can't BRUN it.

-uso.
Antoine Vignau
2015-07-17 21:24:59 UTC
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I'd vote for the std: bin
av
b***@gmail.com
2015-07-18 02:30:22 UTC
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Post by qkumba
Post by sicklittlemonkey
Did you do these in a generic way - like the RWTS replacement Oliver and I were discussing over in c.e.a2?
No, they are customised specifically for each game.
I captured all of the data that are read, consolidated as much as I could, saved the blocks into files, and then replaced the RWTS calls with ProDOS-specific ones, where necessary. For something like Joust or Moon Patrol, I even managed to convert a multi-load game into a single-load one, without loss of fidelity.
The result is a collection of small files, not one monolithic one in each case.
I find this to be more elegant, though it takes a lot more work. In some cases, it's also the only way, because ProDOS can't always remain resident alongside the game (e.g. Mr Do).
I'm greatly impressed by your work

Will you kindly consider making uncompressed, single-load versions of your Moon Patrol and Joust ports which can be used with Beautiful Boot or Compatiboot available? Is Mr. Do! also possible to make into a single-load binary? I seem to recall a three-level demo was cracked into a ~140 sector Binary file.

Do you also use Exomizer or some generic LZMA compression scheme to compress the single-load games? All the single load ports seem to be compressed.

Will your multi-file Prodos ports also work in regular DOS 3.3?
Steve Nickolas
2015-07-18 02:48:16 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Will you kindly consider making uncompressed, single-load versions of
your Moon Patrol and Joust ports which can be used with Beautiful Boot
or Compatiboot available? Is Mr. Do! also possible to make into a
single-load binary? I seem to recall a three-level demo was cracked into
a ~140 sector Binary file.
I'm not sure that's possible, apart from adding some sort of mini-DOS
(such as FASTLOADER binaries have) to the initial BIN file.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Will your multi-file Prodos ports also work in regular DOS 3.3?
I know he has a DOS 3.3 port of Conan...

-uso.
qkumba
2015-07-18 07:18:34 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
I'm greatly impressed by your work
Thanks. It's nice to know when people enjoy the results.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Will you kindly consider making uncompressed, single-load versions of your Moon Patrol and Joust ports which can be used with Beautiful Boot or Compatiboot available?
Hmm, I think that both of them are too big to load uncompressed alongside any OS, which is why I compressed them in the first place. However, the fact that they are compressed should not interfere with their ability to be used in Beautiful Boot or similar. Just drop them into the right place on the disk - they carry the unpacker so they can run directly. They don't have any ProDOS dependencies.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Is Mr. Do! also possible to make into a single-load binary? I seem to recall a three-level demo was cracked into a ~140 sector Binary file.
Ah, I believe that the "demo" was intended to be the full version, and someone overlooked that the cutscenes are loaded from disk, so it crashes as a result.
If the machine has 128kb, then my port *is* a single-loader (unlike the original). It's just not a single file.
It could be made into a single file, ~120 sectors, but the experience wouldn't be "authentic" (the screen would be visibly filled with garbage during the load).
Post by b***@gmail.com
Do you also use Exomizer or some generic LZMA compression scheme to compress the single-load games? All the single load ports seem to be compressed.
I use aPLib to compress, and my own unpacker (see http://pferrie.host22.com/misc/aplibunp.zip)
All of the multi-load ports are compressed, too, except for the Aquatron high score file.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Will your multi-file Prodos ports also work in regular DOS 3.3?
No, you'd need a DOS version of the port. I have a DOS port for Conan on Asimov, but my more recent titles (Karateka, Mr Do, Jungle Hunt, Plasmania, Swashbuckler, Aquatron) are only for ProDOS. They're intended to be run from a hard-disk. There's no point in a DOS port for them, because you could use the full disk image instead.
qkumba
2015-07-18 07:21:36 UTC
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Regarding Aquatron, it's in Asimov incoming right now.
This is the only file-based version with the "dissolve" effect on the title screen, and the high-score file. If the aquatron.1 file is not locked, then it will save the high scores. I reset the table because the version that I have was used previously by impossibly good players whose scores I could never hope to beat. ;-)
b***@gmail.com
2015-07-21 03:22:10 UTC
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Post by qkumba
Ah, I believe that the "demo" was intended to be the full version, and someone overlooked that the cutscenes are loaded from disk, so it crashes as a result.
If the machine has 128kb, then my port *is* a single-loader (unlike the original). It's just not a single file.
It could be made into a single file, ~120 sectors, but the experience wouldn't be "authentic" (the screen would be visibly filled with garbage during the load).
I see. Well, it would be *very* interesting and much appreciated if you could post a single file, compressed version of Mr. Do! which will run in 128k. I'd very much like to test this with Beautiful Boot on a 128k real Apple, without a hard drive. That's the reason for my asking if your compressed ports will run from Beautiful Boot. I've still got my trusty //e with Duodisk drives.
Post by qkumba
Post by b***@gmail.com
Will your multi-file Prodos ports also work in regular DOS 3.3?
No, you'd need a DOS version of the port. I have a DOS port for Conan on Asimov, but my more recent titles (Karateka, Mr Do, Jungle Hunt, Plasmania, Swashbuckler, Aquatron) are only for ProDOS. They're intended to be run from a hard-disk. There's no point in a DOS port for them, because you could use the full disk image instead.
There's still a point in making DOS 3.3 ports for those who have the real hardware and still use good 'old 140k floppies, as ProDOS takes additional time to load, and consumes some ~68 sectors of additional disk space, and imposes memory limitations, etc. DOS 3.3 ports just seem more 'clean' to me. Go figure.

Glad to see you're giving new life into the old games by making single-file and more optimized versions of the old cracks we've had for 30+ years.
qkumba
2015-07-21 23:09:53 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by qkumba
It could be made into a single file, ~120 sectors, but the experience wouldn't be "authentic" (the screen would be visibly filled with garbage during the load).
I see. Well, it would be *very* interesting and much appreciated if you could post a single file, compressed version of Mr. Do! which will run in 128k. I'd very much like to test this with Beautiful Boot on a 128k real Apple, without a hard drive. That's the reason for my asking if your compressed ports will run from Beautiful Boot. I've still got my trusty //e with Duodisk drives.
I see. I've never tried to add files to a Beautiful Boot disk. I'll see what can be done.
Post by b***@gmail.com
There's still a point in making DOS 3.3 ports for those who have the real hardware and still use good 'old 140k floppies, as ProDOS takes additional time to load, and consumes some ~68 sectors of additional disk space, and imposes memory limitations, etc. DOS 3.3 ports just seem more 'clean' to me. Go figure.
Fair enough. I'll investigate making DOS versions alongside the ProDOS versions.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Glad to see you're giving new life into the old games by making single-file and more optimized versions of the old cracks we've had for 30+ years.
I'm glad that you'll be able to enjoy them.
qkumba
2015-07-21 23:11:29 UTC
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Goonies (ProDOS) is now in Asimov incoming.
I've added a character selection feature, too.
Details are in the release notes in the same place.
qkumba
2015-07-22 03:46:16 UTC
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Post by qkumba
I see. I've never tried to add files to a Beautiful Boot disk. I'll see what can be done.
I checked - Moon Patrol and Joust can be added directly to Beautiful Boot (you can use Copy ][+ 7 or later to copy the files from the ProDOS disks to a DOS disk, and then run Beautiful Boot to convert the DOS disk). All of my single-file titles (Alien Rain, Apple Panic, Choplifter, Drelbs, Galaxian, Shamus, Spy Hunter, Wavy Navy) should work similarly. The multi-file titles will require some minor surgery to replace the ProDOS support with DOS support instead.
Unfortunately, Beautiful Boot places data in the text screen, which is visible when Moon Patrol loads. It's ugly, but the game runs.

If you want a really slim OS, perhaps you should consider my Compact Disk OS. It's boring (just text menu), but only 4 sectors total.
The source code is available from my website (http://pferrie.host22.com/misc/appleii.htm), but adding titles currently requires a sector editor.
b***@gmail.com
2015-07-22 08:53:42 UTC
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Post by qkumba
Post by qkumba
I see. I've never tried to add files to a Beautiful Boot disk. I'll see what can be done.
I checked - Moon Patrol and Joust can be added directly to Beautiful Boot (you can use Copy ][+ 7 or later to copy the files from the ProDOS disks to a DOS disk, and then run Beautiful Boot to convert the DOS disk). All of my single-file titles (Alien Rain, Apple Panic, Choplifter, Drelbs, Galaxian, Shamus, Spy Hunter, Wavy Navy) should work similarly. The multi-file titles will require some minor surgery to replace the ProDOS support with DOS support instead.
Unfortunately, Beautiful Boot places data in the text screen, which is visible when Moon Patrol loads. It's ugly, but the game runs.
If the game loads and runs, no harm, no foul. It's streamlined and very convenient to have a single file compressed binary! Would love to see Mr. DO! singlefile if you can swing it!
Post by qkumba
If you want a really slim OS, perhaps you should consider my Compact Disk OS. It's boring (just text menu), but only 4 sectors total.
The source code is available from my website (http://pferrie.host22.com/misc/appleii.htm), but adding titles currently requires a sector editor.
Thanks for considering the DOS ports, it is much appreciated. I've tested all your single file compressed files, and they load with Beautiful Boot perfectly. Alas, your Compact Disk OS seems *wonderful*, utilitarian, but requires the 65c02. I still have my trusty old 128k unenhanced IIe. I never got around to enhancing it back in the day.

Your slim OS seems to work perfectly on various emulators which I've tried. Getting a basic RWTS down to 4 sectors is mighty impressive.
w***@gmail.com
2015-07-22 13:04:15 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by qkumba
Post by qkumba
I see. I've never tried to add files to a Beautiful Boot disk. I'll see what can be done.
I checked - Moon Patrol and Joust can be added directly to Beautiful Boot (you can use Copy ][+ 7 or later to copy the files from the ProDOS disks to a DOS disk, and then run Beautiful Boot to convert the DOS disk). All of my single-file titles (Alien Rain, Apple Panic, Choplifter, Drelbs, Galaxian, Shamus, Spy Hunter, Wavy Navy) should work similarly. The multi-file titles will require some minor surgery to replace the ProDOS support with DOS support instead.
Unfortunately, Beautiful Boot places data in the text screen, which is visible when Moon Patrol loads. It's ugly, but the game runs.
If the game loads and runs, no harm, no foul. It's streamlined and very convenient to have a single file compressed binary! Would love to see Mr. DO! singlefile if you can swing it!
Post by qkumba
If you want a really slim OS, perhaps you should consider my Compact Disk OS. It's boring (just text menu), but only 4 sectors total.
The source code is available from my website (http://pferrie.host22.com/misc/appleii.htm), but adding titles currently requires a sector editor.
Thanks for considering the DOS ports, it is much appreciated. I've tested all your single file compressed files, and they load with Beautiful Boot perfectly. Alas, your Compact Disk OS seems *wonderful*, utilitarian, but requires the 65c02. I still have my trusty old 128k unenhanced IIe. I never got around to enhancing it back in the day.
Your slim OS seems to work perfectly on various emulators which I've tried. Getting a basic RWTS down to 4 sectors is mighty impressive.
Unless you have a particular need for an unenhanced IIe, the enhancement kit is definitely worth it. I recommend it strongly.

Of course, keep your old chips so you can "unenhance" if you ever need (or want) to.
qkumba
2015-07-22 15:47:58 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by qkumba
Unfortunately, Beautiful Boot places data in the text screen, which is visible when Moon Patrol loads. It's ugly, but the game runs.
If the game loads and runs, no harm, no foul. It's streamlined and very convenient to have a single file compressed binary!
Yes, but I'm trying to preserve the look-and-feel of the original, where possible, including the in-memory delays (not the disk access ones, obviously) and blank screens. I have a policy of not requiring more memory than the original did (so Plasmania accesses the disk for the sound, even though I could store it in 64kb). I also have a policy of not requiring more sides than the original had (so Prince of Persia and Toy Shop were compressed very heavily - the technical details are on my site, in case you are interested), again to preserve the original behaviour.
I'm going to have to break that rule for some titles, because it's simply impossible to convert them otherwise. That makes me sad, but I have to accept it.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Would love to see Mr. DO! singlefile if you can swing it!
It won't need to be single-file - I can drop in a DOS filesystem parser and use that. I just have to actually do it.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by qkumba
If you want a really slim OS, perhaps you should consider my Compact Disk OS. It's boring (just text menu), but only 4 sectors total.
The source code is available from my website (http://pferrie.host22.com/misc/appleii.htm), but adding titles currently requires a sector editor.
Thanks for considering the DOS ports, it is much appreciated. I've tested all your single file compressed files, and they load with Beautiful Boot perfectly. Alas, your Compact Disk OS seems *wonderful*, utilitarian, but requires the 65c02. I still have my trusty old 128k unenhanced IIe. I never got around to enhancing it back in the day.
If the Beautiful Boot titles are actually running, then you have a 65C02, because the decompressor requires a 65C02.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Your slim OS seems to work perfectly on various emulators which I've tried. Getting a basic RWTS down to 4 sectors is mighty impressive.
Thanks, that one required some tricks and careful cycle counting.
sicklittlemonkey
2015-08-13 02:34:10 UTC
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Post by qkumba
Moon Patrol
I see a problem with Moon Patrol. Double mountain ranges at start of game.

Will try to email you a pic.

Cheers,
Nick.
qkumba
2015-08-13 17:15:29 UTC
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Post by sicklittlemonkey
Post by qkumba
Moon Patrol
I see a problem with Moon Patrol. Double mountain ranges at start of game.
Will try to email you a pic.
Ah, I believe that the issue is in AppleWin.
Shamus has an issue with AppleWin, too - random resets.
Both work in other emulators.

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