Discussion:
Buying old Apple II books
(too old to reply)
Anthony Ortiz
2017-07-11 01:02:56 UTC
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I've been looking online for some old Apple II technical/hardware reference manuals and the few that are out there are pretty expensive, going for hundreds of dollars. Second best option is getting the PDF/Text versions and reading them offline on the iPad but nothing beats a hardcopy that I can flip through back and forth as needed; that's the problem with e-readers... they're great for sequential books but not for reference material. Anyway, I was browsing AbeBooks for the Apple IIe technical reference manual (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?ds=20&kn=Apple+IIE+Technical+Reference&sts=t) and found two books, one for $79.96 and another for $1,606.37. But I also noticed two others for less than $20 and thought I found myself a steal, but then I read the description and they are for soft/hard cover copies made in India from scanned versions.

Now I'm not a pirate and have never been one, I always buy my own movies/music/games/books/whatever, but now I find myself downloading Apple II pdf's of books I don't actually own and I'm starting to froth at the bit given the $20 temptation India has to offer. I don't understand what happened in the last few years that the books that used to be paper-weights and couldn't even be given away for free are suddenly going for hundreds of dollars each but it's not cool...

What say you guys?
Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
2017-07-11 02:56:22 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
that's the problem with e-readers... they're great for sequential books but not for reference material.
Ironically, I find just the opposite. Dead tree is great for sequential reading and eBooks great for searching.
Post by Anthony Ortiz
Now I'm not a pirate and have never been one, I always buy my own movies/music/games/books/whatever, but now I find myself downloading Apple II pdf's of books I don't actually own and I'm starting to froth at the bit given the $20 temptation India has to offer.
Welcome to the dark side. :-)

/sarcasm PDFs are a gateway link to downloading illegal numbers.
Post by Anthony Ortiz
I don't understand what happened in the last few years that the books that used to be paper-weights and couldn't even be given away for free are suddenly going for hundreds of dollars each but it's not cool...
What say you guys?
Having spent literally hundreds of dollars this last year on eBay to have original documentation I *really* wish I had spent far less. Dead tree versions aren't as important as I originally thought. I mean, how many copies of Beneath Apple DOS does one _really_ need? :-)

No publisher is making money printing and selling Apple 2 books these days. No one is going to care that you have a PDF of a book that has been out of print for 20+ years -- aside from you.

PDFs are darn convenient -- especially on a iPad Pro. I just wish I could get ASCII versions of the books I'm interested in.

The only thing I can say is -- do what your conscience motivates you to do to help you sleep at night.

There is no right answer.
James Davis
2017-07-11 07:00:30 UTC
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The PDFs are in the public domain, so download the ones you want, get a good printer, and print out the ones you want to really feel with your fingers. It would probably cost about the same as purchasing one to be shipped to you: price plus shipping and handling.
Antoine Vignau
2017-07-11 11:47:54 UTC
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It is not public domain but made freely available for the masses and I am part of those pdf-ing such items.
As written previously, no one cares now and despite the lack of authorization (for some of us), it helps people entering the Apple II world.

Antoine
Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
2017-07-11 11:53:51 UTC
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Post by James Davis
The PDFs are in the public domain,
That's incorrect unless the author has explicitly released their copyright.

"Thanks" to Mickey Mouse, aka, Disney, hijacking copyright in the USA ...

"As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author PLUS an additional 70 years."

... all Apple 2 books won't be public domain until at _least_ 2048.
Steven Hirsch
2017-07-12 12:05:06 UTC
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Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
"Thanks" to Mickey Mouse, aka, Disney, hijacking copyright in the USA ...
"As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright
protection lasts for the life of the author PLUS an additional 70 years."
And when that time rolls around for Disney, the powers-that-be will find
enough coin operated congress-critters to ensure that nothing ever enters the
public domain again so long as a commercial interest exists (not trying to
start a political argument, as this sort of corruption is as non-partisan as
it gets).
Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
2017-07-12 14:47:06 UTC
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Sadly.

/sarcasm Hey we have the best government money can buy!

/Oblg. If Con is the opposite of Pro then what does that make Congress ?
Michael J. Mahon
2017-07-12 16:43:05 UTC
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Post by Steven Hirsch
Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
"Thanks" to Mickey Mouse, aka, Disney, hijacking copyright in the USA ...
"As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright
protection lasts for the life of the author PLUS an additional 70 years."
And when that time rolls around for Disney, the powers-that-be will find
enough coin operated congress-critters to ensure that nothing ever enters the
public domain again so long as a commercial interest exists (not trying to
start a political argument, as this sort of corruption is as non-partisan as
it gets).
Yep, that's one of "Mahon's Laws", enunciated in the early 1990s:
"Copyright law is whatever is required to prevent Mickey Mouse from going
into the public domain."
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Steve Nickolas
2017-07-12 19:15:04 UTC
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Post by Steven Hirsch
Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
"Thanks" to Mickey Mouse, aka, Disney, hijacking copyright in the USA ...
"As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright
protection lasts for the life of the author PLUS an additional 70 years."
And when that time rolls around for Disney, the powers-that-be will find
enough coin operated congress-critters to ensure that nothing ever enters the
public domain again so long as a commercial interest exists (not trying to
start a political argument, as this sort of corruption is as non-partisan as
it gets).
:P

We can only hope there's no copyright extension passed this year, because
otherwise a few things (C) 1923 are going to enter the PD on January 1.

-uso.
Michael Black
2017-07-13 17:36:36 UTC
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Post by Steve Nickolas
Post by Steven Hirsch
Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
"Thanks" to Mickey Mouse, aka, Disney, hijacking copyright in the USA ...
"As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright
protection lasts for the life of the author PLUS an additional 70 years."
And when that time rolls around for Disney, the powers-that-be will find
enough coin operated congress-critters to ensure that nothing ever enters
the public domain again so long as a commercial interest exists (not trying
to start a political argument, as this sort of corruption is as
non-partisan as it gets).
:P
We can only hope there's no copyright extension passed this year, because
otherwise a few things (C) 1923 are going to enter the PD on January 1.
I dont' think that's the way it works.

Things did fall out of copyright, then the rules changed so that sort of
thing wouldn't happen. But it wasn't retroactive. So things where the
copyright expired, if it was the right time period, means they won't go
back into copyright.

Michael
James Davis
2017-07-13 06:45:02 UTC
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Correction: If the PDFs are in the "public.asimov.net" domain <ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/>, download the ones you want, get a good printer, and print out the ones you want to really feel with your fingers.
D Finnigan
2017-07-11 13:51:10 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
I've been looking online for some old Apple II technical/hardware
reference
manuals and the few that are out there are pretty expensive, going for
hundreds of dollars.
[...]
Post by Anthony Ortiz
I'm starting to froth at the bit
given the $20 temptation India has to offer. I don't understand what
happened in the last few years that the books that used to be
paper-weights
and couldn't even be given away for free are suddenly going for hundreds
of
dollars each but it's not cool...
What say you guys?
I used to buy a couple of used Apple II books a year, but now I've stopped
because the prices jumped up crazy high a couple years ago. Not sure when,
maybe after the SJ death. I wonder if the Amazon sellers are using a keyword
algorithm to match titles and jack up the price accordingly. And it's not
just Apple II, but also books with 6502 in the title, or Z80, for example.

I don't see how they can justify these prices, and it's pretty absurd to
place the designation of "rare" on any consumer product that was
mass-produced and sold in volume so recently as the 1980s. So I don't buy
many books any more because I don't want them that bad, plus I probably have
enough Apple II books right now anyway (I still buy books, just not computer
books anymore).

It's perverse really, because the Amazon system is set up to show listings
in ascending order of price + ship which is supposed to be INCENTIVE for
sellers to undersell each other, or at least match prices. But it looks like
it's just the opposite: a race to the top instead. Many sellers see it as a
price floor, not as a price to match or beat.

And I think a lot of it can be attributed to amateur salesmen, amateur
business owners who have no concept of "money in the pot now is worth more
than money later," that is, better to make a good sale now rather than have
a high price and go a long time before (or never) making a sale. You see
this all the time, everywhere, on eBay too and in physical shops.

It's why I've priced The New Apple II User's Guide at such a low price when
I've had people tell me I could charge more for it, and I have discounted it
to as low as $20 on more than one occasion. I'd rather sell a lot of copies
at a good price, and be guaranteed to make a lot of sales, (which it has--
900th copy sold last month and we are counting up towards 1,000 copies sold
which I think we'll make next year) than sell fewer copies and perhaps make
less profit overall in the long run.

There's a listing of the New Apple II User's Guide for almost $6,000 on
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0615639879/
I haven't gotten around to contacting the seller about it, but I would like
to hear the justification for that price when a new copy can be had any day
of the week for around $25 or so.
--
]DF$
Apple II 40th Anniversary User's Guide:
http://macgui.com/newa2guide/
Richard Thiebaud
2017-07-11 15:16:03 UTC
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Post by D Finnigan
Post by Anthony Ortiz
I've been looking online for some old Apple II technical/hardware
reference
manuals and the few that are out there are pretty expensive, going for
hundreds of dollars.
[...]
Post by Anthony Ortiz
I'm starting to froth at the bit
given the $20 temptation India has to offer. I don't understand what
happened in the last few years that the books that used to be
paper-weights
and couldn't even be given away for free are suddenly going for hundreds
of
dollars each but it's not cool...
What say you guys?
I used to buy a couple of used Apple II books a year, but now I've stopped
because the prices jumped up crazy high a couple years ago. Not sure when,
maybe after the SJ death. I wonder if the Amazon sellers are using a keyword
algorithm to match titles and jack up the price accordingly. And it's not
just Apple II, but also books with 6502 in the title, or Z80, for example.
I don't see how they can justify these prices, and it's pretty absurd to
place the designation of "rare" on any consumer product that was
mass-produced and sold in volume so recently as the 1980s. So I don't buy
many books any more because I don't want them that bad, plus I probably have
enough Apple II books right now anyway (I still buy books, just not computer
books anymore).
It's perverse really, because the Amazon system is set up to show listings
in ascending order of price + ship which is supposed to be INCENTIVE for
sellers to undersell each other, or at least match prices. But it looks like
it's just the opposite: a race to the top instead. Many sellers see it as a
price floor, not as a price to match or beat.
And I think a lot of it can be attributed to amateur salesmen, amateur
business owners who have no concept of "money in the pot now is worth more
than money later," that is, better to make a good sale now rather than have
a high price and go a long time before (or never) making a sale. You see
this all the time, everywhere, on eBay too and in physical shops.
It's why I've priced The New Apple II User's Guide at such a low price when
I've had people tell me I could charge more for it, and I have discounted it
to as low as $20 on more than one occasion. I'd rather sell a lot of copies
at a good price, and be guaranteed to make a lot of sales, (which it has--
900th copy sold last month and we are counting up towards 1,000 copies sold
which I think we'll make next year) than sell fewer copies and perhaps make
less profit overall in the long run.
There's a listing of the New Apple II User's Guide for almost $6,000 on
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0615639879/
I haven't gotten around to contacting the seller about it, but I would like
to hear the justification for that price when a new copy can be had any day
of the week for around $25 or so.
They justify the prices by the fact that that they hope people will pay
them.
Jorge
2017-07-12 15:39:35 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
I've been looking online for some old Apple II technical/hardware reference manuals and the few that are out there are pretty expensive, going for hundreds of dollars. Second best option is getting the PDF/Text versions and reading them offline on the iPad but nothing beats a hardcopy that I can flip through back and forth as needed; that's the problem with e-readers... they're great for sequential books but not for reference material. Anyway, I was browsing AbeBooks for the Apple IIe technical reference manual (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?ds=20&kn=Apple+IIE+Technical+Reference&sts=t) and found two books, one for $79.96 and another for $1,606.37. But I also noticed two others for less than $20 and thought I found myself a steal, but then I read the description and they are for soft/hard cover copies made in India from scanned versions.
Now I'm not a pirate and have never been one, I always buy my own movies/music/games/books/whatever, but now I find myself downloading Apple II pdf's of books I don't actually own and I'm starting to froth at the bit given the $20 temptation India has to offer. I don't understand what happened in the last few years that the books that used to be paper-weights and couldn't even be given away for free are suddenly going for hundreds of dollars each but it's not cool...
What say you guys?
I say the books/magazines/texts section of archive.org is the best thing ever, I'm going to upload there every vintage manual I have.

And they have lots of interenting things already, such as, for example, lots of issues of "Micro the 6502 journal", and Byte, Creative Computing, Electronics Today, EDN... etc. Which is awesome.

No luck with the Sup'r Terminal user manual though, but the one for the Videx Videoterm cards was there IIRC.
--
Jorge.
Jorge
2017-07-12 15:45:44 UTC
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Post by Jorge
Post by Anthony Ortiz
I've been looking online for some old Apple II technical/hardware reference manuals and the few that are out there are pretty expensive, going for hundreds of dollars. Second best option is getting the PDF/Text versions and reading them offline on the iPad but nothing beats a hardcopy that I can flip through back and forth as needed; that's the problem with e-readers... they're great for sequential books but not for reference material. Anyway, I was browsing AbeBooks for the Apple IIe technical reference manual (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?ds=20&kn=Apple+IIE+Technical+Reference&sts=t) and found two books, one for $79.96 and another for $1,606.37. But I also noticed two others for less than $20 and thought I found myself a steal, but then I read the description and they are for soft/hard cover copies made in India from scanned versions.
Now I'm not a pirate and have never been one, I always buy my own movies/music/games/books/whatever, but now I find myself downloading Apple II pdf's of books I don't actually own and I'm starting to froth at the bit given the $20 temptation India has to offer. I don't understand what happened in the last few years that the books that used to be paper-weights and couldn't even be given away for free are suddenly going for hundreds of dollars each but it's not cool...
What say you guys?
I say the books/magazines/texts section of archive.org is the best thing ever, I'm going to upload there every vintage manual I have.
And they have lots of interenting things already, such as, for example, lots of issues of "Micro the 6502 journal", and Byte, Creative Computing, Electronics Today, EDN... etc. Which is awesome.
No luck with the Sup'r Terminal user manual though, but the one for the Videx Videoterm cards was there IIRC.
--
Jorge.
And bitsavers, of course.

I once bought @ syndicomm a copy of the IIgs technical reference manual (or the IIc, I'm not sure), it costed me a lot (as much as new) and they sent me a bad copy of a copy of loose sheets barely readable, in other words it was a steal, they have no shame.
--
Jorge.
Adam Hall
2017-07-13 12:30:02 UTC
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Post by Jorge
I say the books/magazines/texts section of archive.org is the best thing ever, I'm going to upload there every vintage manual I have.
I like archive.org, but I find it a bit of mess when it comes to
searching and search results.
Jorge
2017-07-13 16:32:49 UTC
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Post by Adam Hall
Post by Jorge
I say the books/magazines/texts section of archive.org is the best thing ever, I'm going to upload there every vintage manual I have.
I like archive.org, but I find it a bit of mess when it comes to
searching and search results.
Yes it's a bit of a mess but there's a lot of interesting things in there.
awanderin
2017-07-14 04:06:27 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
I've been looking online for some old Apple II technical/hardware
reference manuals and the few that are out there are pretty expensive,
going for hundreds of dollars. Second best option is getting the
PDF/Text versions and reading them offline on the iPad but nothing
beats a hardcopy that I can flip through back and forth as needed;
that's the problem with e-readers... they're great for sequential
books but not for reference material. Anyway, I was browsing AbeBooks
for the Apple IIe technical reference manual
(https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?ds=20&kn=Apple+IIE+Technical+Reference&sts=t)
and found two books, one for $79.96 and another for $1,606.37. But I
also noticed two others for less than $20 and thought I found myself a
steal, but then I read the description and they are for soft/hard
cover copies made in India from scanned versions.
Now I'm not a pirate and have never been one, I always buy my own
movies/music/games/books/whatever, but now I find myself downloading
Apple II pdf's of books I don't actually own and I'm starting to froth
at the bit given the $20 temptation India has to offer. I don't
understand what happened in the last few years that the books that
used to be paper-weights and couldn't even be given away for free are
suddenly going for hundreds of dollars each but it's not cool...
What say you guys?
What books are you interested in getting? I have a lot of Apple II
books and some duplicates (due to buying by the boxful at times).
--
--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
Anthony Ortiz
2017-07-15 00:58:37 UTC
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Post by awanderin
What books are you interested in getting? I have a lot of Apple II
books and some duplicates (due to buying by the boxful at times).
--
--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
Some books are "understanding the apple iie", "Apple IIe technical reference", and "Apple IIgs Hardware Reference". However, if you have any of these books, you'd be better off putting them on eBay and waiting for a rich man to bite :P
awanderin
2017-07-15 21:28:54 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
Post by awanderin
What books are you interested in getting? I have a lot of Apple II
books and some duplicates (due to buying by the boxful at times).
--
--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
Some books are "understanding the apple iie", "Apple IIe technical
reference", and "Apple IIgs Hardware Reference". However, if you have
any of these books, you'd be better off putting them on eBay and
waiting for a rich man to bite :P
I don't have the first, but do have the others. I only have one copy of
each of those, however, so I'm going to hold onto them. If I did have
more than one, I'd sell them to you for a reasonable amount.

I did my ebay book-buying back when prices (and shipping) were
reasonable.

--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
James Davis
2017-07-16 01:01:53 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
Post by awanderin
What books are you interested in getting? I have a lot of Apple II
books and some duplicates (due to buying by the boxful at times).
--
--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
Some books are "understanding the apple iie", "Apple IIe technical reference", and "Apple IIgs Hardware Reference". However, if you have any of these books, you'd be better off putting them on eBay and waiting for a rich man to bite :P
Hi Anthony,

They are all on Asimov:

ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Understanding%20the%20Apple%20IIe.pdf

ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual%20(alt%201).pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual%20(alt%202)_part%201.pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual%20(alt%202)_part%202.pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual%20(alt%202)_part%203.pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual%20(alt%202)_part%204.pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual%20(alt%202)_part%205.pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual%20(alt%203).pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIe%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual.pdf

ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIgs%20Hardware%20Reference.pdf
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/Apple%20IIgs%20Hardware%20Reference_HiRes.pdf

James Davis
Anthony Ortiz
2017-08-09 02:31:08 UTC
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FYI, dirt cheap copy of Sathers' "Understanding the Apple IIe" for sale on eBay : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Understanding-the-Apple-IIe-by-James-F-Sather-1985-Paperback-/253082881512?hash=item3aecea4de8:g:6KQAAOSwtFtZiC3h
Scott Alfter
2017-08-09 17:08:39 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
FYI, dirt cheap copy of Sathers' "Understanding the Apple IIe" for sale
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/253082881512
Must be nice to be loaded enough that $100 qualifies as "dirt cheap."

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Michael J. Mahon
2017-08-09 20:14:21 UTC
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Post by Scott Alfter
Post by Anthony Ortiz
FYI, dirt cheap copy of Sathers' "Understanding the Apple IIe" for sale
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/253082881512
Must be nice to be loaded enough that $100 qualifies as "dirt cheap."
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Really--$100 buys a *lot* of dirt! ;-)
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Anthony Ortiz
2017-08-10 00:50:19 UTC
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In article <84329007-b49b-42d0-82c4-googlegroups.com>,
Post by Anthony Ortiz
FYI, dirt cheap copy of Sathers' "Understanding the Apple IIe" for sale
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/253082881512
Must be nice to be loaded enough that $100 qualifies as "dirt cheap."
The sarcasm went right over a few heads :P
Scott Alfter
2017-08-10 17:23:21 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
In article <84329007-b49b-42d0-82c4-googlegroups.com>,
Post by Anthony Ortiz
FYI, dirt cheap copy of Sathers' "Understanding the Apple IIe" for sale
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/253082881512
Must be nice to be loaded enough that $100 qualifies as "dirt cheap."
The sarcasm went right over a few heads :P
I blame Poe's Law. :)

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Zellyn
2017-08-10 13:59:04 UTC
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Post by Anthony Ortiz
FYI, dirt cheap copy of Sathers' "Understanding the Apple IIe" for sale on eBay : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Understanding-the-Apple-IIe-by-James-F-Sather-1985-Paperback-/253082881512?hash=item3aecea4de8:g:6KQAAOSwtFtZiC3h
I sent an offer for $30. We'll see… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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