Discussion:
For Mocking board on APPLE IIc
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ian kim
2015-12-27 01:49:50 UTC
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Dear all,
I have new project for APPLE IIc.
APPLE IIc is compact but there is no sound card and it is one of weakness of APPLE IIc. so, I decided to build a mocking board compatible sound card for APPLE IIc.

To achieve it, It required a slot for mocking board but, APPLE IIc doesn't have any slot and my fist step is trying to make virtual slot for mocking board.

Now, I have good progress and now I can have signals and successfully did mask the slot#4 area.
You can see it on my blog.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1283

Now, I'm checking all other requirements to control sound chips.

Do you like this new mocking board for your APPLE IIc? :)

Thanks
Ian Kim
Howard Poe
2015-12-28 01:34:48 UTC
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Post by ian kim
Dear all,
I have new project for APPLE IIc.
APPLE IIc is compact but there is no sound card and it is one of weakness of APPLE IIc. so, I decided to build a mocking board compatible sound card for APPLE IIc.
To achieve it, It required a slot for mocking board but, APPLE IIc doesn't have any slot and my fist step is trying to make virtual slot for mocking board.
Now, I have good progress and now I can have signals and successfully did mask the slot#4 area.
You can see it on my blog.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1283
Now, I'm checking all other requirements to control sound chips.
Do you like this new mocking board for your APPLE IIc? :)
Thanks
Ian Kim
Sweet Micro Systems did build the Mockingboard D for the Apple IIc, which connected via serial to the modem port: http://apple2online.com/web_documents/mockingboard_d_manual__part_1_.pdf

It probably didn't have as much support in software as the slot based one, though.
ian kim
2015-12-28 10:55:38 UTC
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The mocking board D isn't famous and more I even can't find any game which is support the Mocking board D.
So, I'm not interest in the Mocking board D.
Now, I'm trying to pulling signal on my board hope to have sound as mocking board A/C.

Thanks,
Ian
Post by Howard Poe
Post by ian kim
Dear all,
I have new project for APPLE IIc.
APPLE IIc is compact but there is no sound card and it is one of weakness of APPLE IIc. so, I decided to build a mocking board compatible sound card for APPLE IIc.
To achieve it, It required a slot for mocking board but, APPLE IIc doesn't have any slot and my fist step is trying to make virtual slot for mocking board.
Now, I have good progress and now I can have signals and successfully did mask the slot#4 area.
You can see it on my blog.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1283
Now, I'm checking all other requirements to control sound chips.
Do you like this new mocking board for your APPLE IIc? :)
Thanks
Ian Kim
Sweet Micro Systems did build the Mockingboard D for the Apple IIc, which connected via serial to the modem port: http://apple2online.com/web_documents/mockingboard_d_manual__part_1_.pdf
It probably didn't have as much support in software as the slot based one, though.
option8
2015-12-28 23:35:49 UTC
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Any chance the virtual card interface could be adapted to other cards beyond the Mockingboard?
ian kim
2015-12-30 10:24:32 UTC
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It is possible theoretically.
However, there are several problems to be expected.
First, the virtual slot has already occupied in APPLE IIc such as serial port, printer, smartport, 80column cards it should be considered with possible conflicts with the device.
In the mockingboard cases, it used #4 slot, there is already mouse firmware.and have to make vacant for mocking board.
If you tell me what card want to use, I can say some more for that.
Thanks anyway,
Ian Kim
ian kim
2015-12-30 10:32:30 UTC
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You can see a mocking board for APPLE IIc now.



This board is sit over the CPU socket and act as mocking board on slot #4.
I used a CPLD to make required signals for this Mocking board and working properly.
It is stable working and no interfere APPLE IIc working.
It switch off the mouse firmware and make vacant for mocking board.
It just do when mocking board requested.
I will put a small AMP chip for internal speaker also will be prepared earphone socket for external Speaker.
So, APPLE IIc also can enjoy with a lots of fun game with mocking board support.

Thanks
Ian Kim
Jorma Honkanen
2015-12-30 12:13:10 UTC
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Stunning!
ian kim
2016-01-02 23:55:11 UTC
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Thank you,
I will challenge some more devices for APPLE IIc.
Regards;
Ina Kim
ian kim
2016-02-13 13:19:20 UTC
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Finally I completed the Mockingboard 4c.
Please refer the link.

http://quick09.tistory.com/1294

Thank you very much,
Ian Kim
Michael J. Mahon
2016-02-13 18:07:48 UTC
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Post by ian kim
Finally I completed the Mockingboard 4c.
Please refer the link.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1294
Thank you very much,
Ian Kim
I wonder if the left/right channel assignment is correct...
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
w***@gmail.com
2016-02-14 02:37:35 UTC
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Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by ian kim
Finally I completed the Mockingboard 4c.
Please refer the link.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1294
Thank you very much,
Ian Kim
I wonder if the left/right channel assignment is correct...
You can always switch your speakers around :-)
g***@sasktel.net
2016-02-14 03:46:39 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by ian kim
Finally I completed the Mockingboard 4c.
Please refer the link.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1294
Thank you very much,
Ian Kim
I wonder if the left/right channel assignment is correct...
You can always switch your speakers around :-)
Or turn around and face away from the computer so the left speaker plays in your left ear, etc ...
You could use a mirror to look behind you to see the monitor.

Or, you could use ear phones and put the knob meant for your left ear into your right ear.

Or ... :)
ian kim
2016-02-14 04:13:07 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by ian kim
Finally I completed the Mockingboard 4c.
Please refer the link.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1294
Thank you very much,
Ian Kim
I wonder if the left/right channel assignment is correct...
You can always switch your speakers around :-)
Yes, right,
But, the small potentio-meter has mark as L and R,
So, It would be better to fix the control signal to match R and L marks,
Anyway, It's very easy to do it.

Thanks
Ian Kim
ian kim
2016-03-12 10:32:11 UTC
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I put some on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281963004639?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Thank you
Ian Kim
Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
2016-03-14 05:11:53 UTC
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Post by ian kim
Ian Kim
I'm actually more curious how are you getting video output on a LCD screen? :-)
ian kim
2016-03-14 12:26:56 UTC
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Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
Post by ian kim
Ian Kim
I'm actually more curious how are you getting video output on a LCD screen? :-)
In my case, I'm using old LCD monitor which has a NTSC signal and small LCD monitor(also has Video IN), but some of member(Maybe you saw one mockingobard 4c of review) In his case, He is using a sort of RGB converter for IIc.
Jorma Honkanen
2016-03-17 08:19:53 UTC
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No changed to get one working on A2C+ ?
ian kim
2016-03-17 15:15:41 UTC
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Post by Jorma Honkanen
No changed to get one working on A2C+ ?
It doesn't work on APPLE //c+.
It works on APPLE //c only.

Thanks;
Ian Kim
datawiz
2016-03-17 19:59:08 UTC
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I'm pretty excited to have bought one today... Thanks for the head's up Ian.

One question, have you tested with a Zip Chip on the //c? Do you think there's any problem using a Zip chip with it? (hardware incompatibility, clearance issue, etc).
ian kim
2016-03-19 13:47:30 UTC
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Post by datawiz
I'm pretty excited to have bought one today... Thanks for the head's up Ian.
One question, have you tested with a Zip Chip on the //c? Do you think there's any problem using a Zip chip with it? (hardware incompatibility, clearance issue, etc).
I didn't test it with Zip chip so, can't know if it works or not and It is using Q2 signal on CPU which doesn't used by APPLE II and the clearance may be a problem cause the ZIP chip would be thicker than CPU chip.
I don't know much about Zip chip and can't give you a proper answer.
Sorry for it.
Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
2016-06-30 00:12:48 UTC
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Post by ian kim
I put some on eBay.
Thank you
Ian Kim
I finally got around to ordering one ! Thanks for selling these!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282066092376?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I see that it isn't compatible with the Laser 128 -- you wouldn't happen to know the technical details why by chance?

Cheers
Michael
ian kim
2016-06-30 11:56:06 UTC
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Thank you very much! Hope to like it.
Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
I see that it isn't compatible with the Laser 128 -- you wouldn't happen to know the technical details why by chance?
The major reason is physical size. It doesn't fit on Laser128.
I need to test it on my Laser128EX with DIP40 extension cable then will let everyone know the results. :)
It I could make it run on the Laser128, I could start design new PCB.
but, How many order could I receive for mockingboard 4 Laser, This is the difficulty.

Thanks,
Ian Kim
STYNX
2016-06-30 17:32:07 UTC
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Post by ian kim
The major reason is physical size. It doesn't fit on Laser128.
I need to test it on my Laser128EX with DIP40 extension cable then will let everyone know the results. :)
It I could make it run on the Laser128, I could start design new PCB.
but, How many order could I receive for mockingboard 4 Laser, This is the difficulty.
Thanks,
Ian Kim
You could reduce the size by using the ymz284/ymz294 that is available in dip-16. The only difference to the usual YM2149/AY3-891X is the doubled input clock. ;-) ... or you could go the "full mile" with the ymf288 that has a YM2149 with the correct addresses, a YM2612 and a percussion part. completely register compatible to the AY3-891X (except the two 8bit ports) from registers 00-FD. The best part is, that the YMF288 is a small SMD device :-P and uses either 3.3 or 5V. I think you should have some sample chips.

-Jonas
ian kim
2016-07-04 07:05:39 UTC
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Post by STYNX
Post by ian kim
The major reason is physical size. It doesn't fit on Laser128.
I need to test it on my Laser128EX with DIP40 extension cable then will let everyone know the results. :)
It I could make it run on the Laser128, I could start design new PCB.
but, How many order could I receive for mockingboard 4 Laser, This is the difficulty.
Thanks,
Ian Kim
You could reduce the size by using the ymz284/ymz294 that is available in dip-16. The only difference to the usual YM2149/AY3-891X is the doubled input clock. ;-) ... or you could go the "full mile" with the ymf288 that has a YM2149 with the correct addresses, a YM2612 and a percussion part. completely register compatible to the AY3-891X (except the two 8bit ports) from registers 00-FD. The best part is, that the YMF288 is a small SMD device :-P and uses either 3.3 or 5V. I think you should have some sample chips.
-Jonas
Thanks for your comments and I need to dig about the YMF288 then can say some more. ;)

Thanks for your supports,
Ian Kim
Joe Kwon
2018-01-22 19:58:21 UTC
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Just bought one today and I'm super excited to get it installed! One question, I just saw the Assembly Lines #59 video on youtube which referred to the noise interference at 3:58 -


Is this a problem with all Iic's or just his? Wondering if I need to buy some resistors when I do the install.

Thanks again!
Joe
Post by ian kim
Post by STYNX
Post by ian kim
The major reason is physical size. It doesn't fit on Laser128.
I need to test it on my Laser128EX with DIP40 extension cable then will let everyone know the results. :)
It I could make it run on the Laser128, I could start design new PCB.
but, How many order could I receive for mockingboard 4 Laser, This is the difficulty.
Thanks,
Ian Kim
You could reduce the size by using the ymz284/ymz294 that is available in dip-16. The only difference to the usual YM2149/AY3-891X is the doubled input clock. ;-) ... or you could go the "full mile" with the ymf288 that has a YM2149 with the correct addresses, a YM2612 and a percussion part. completely register compatible to the AY3-891X (except the two 8bit ports) from registers 00-FD. The best part is, that the YMF288 is a small SMD device :-P and uses either 3.3 or 5V. I think you should have some sample chips.
-Jonas
Thanks for your comments and I need to dig about the YMF288 then can say some more. ;)
Thanks for your supports,
Ian Kim
Chris Torrence
2018-02-03 19:30:02 UTC
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Post by Joe Kwon
Just bought one today and I'm super excited to get it installed! One question, I just saw the Assembly Lines #59 video on youtube which referred to the noise interference at 3:58 - http://youtu.be/7yxKLHlAIIw
Is this a problem with all Iic's or just his? Wondering if I need to buy some resistors when I do the install.
Hi Joe,
I think this is going to be a problem with all IIc's. Ian said that he noticed the same thing. It's pretty easy to solder in the two resistors. I used 47 Ohm because that seemed to give the best balance between noise reduction and volume loss.
Cheers,
Chris

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisTorrence1
Assembly Lines: http://smile.amazon.com/dp/1312089407

ian kim
2016-02-14 04:08:59 UTC
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Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by ian kim
Finally I completed the Mockingboard 4c.
Please refer the link.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1294
Thank you very much,
Ian Kim
I wonder if the left/right channel assignment is correct...
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
That's good point,
To make sure the right and left channels, What Software is good to check it?
Anyway, It used a CPLD so It could be changed if it wrong.
Thanks for your comments,
Ian Kim
Kevin Dady
2016-01-01 22:40:44 UTC
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Post by ian kim
Dear all,
I have new project for APPLE IIc.
APPLE IIc is compact but there is no sound card and it is one of weakness of APPLE IIc. so, I decided to build a mocking board compatible sound card for APPLE IIc.
To achieve it, It required a slot for mocking board but, APPLE IIc doesn't have any slot and my fist step is trying to make virtual slot for mocking board.
Now, I have good progress and now I can have signals and successfully did mask the slot#4 area.
You can see it on my blog.
http://quick09.tistory.com/1283
Now, I'm checking all other requirements to control sound chips.
Do you like this new mocking board for your APPLE IIc? :)
Thanks
Ian Kim
I want one!
ian kim
2016-01-02 23:52:23 UTC
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Thanks for your pre-order. :)
I stared draw a PCB, This board will be tested on several IIc ROM models and will make final boards.
I already had several pre-orders from local APPLE IIc fans. :)
I guess that it would take a month to put on eBay for Sale.

Thanks;
Ian Kim
mdj
2016-01-05 04:28:35 UTC
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Post by ian kim
Dear all,
I have new project for APPLE IIc.
APPLE IIc is compact but there is no sound card and it is one of weakness of APPLE IIc. so, I decided to build a mocking board compatible sound card for APPLE IIc.
To achieve it, It required a slot for mocking board but, APPLE IIc doesn't have any slot and my fist step is trying to make virtual slot for mocking board.
Now, I have good progress and now I can have signals and successfully did mask the slot#4 area.
Nice proof of concept!

I note that you're decoding $C400-$C4FF, which is the slot ROM (/IOSEL) area for slot 4. The IO locations for each slot are actually located at $C080+(slotno * 16) - so for slot 4 that's $C0C0-$C0CF. Those are the locations you'll need to decode to plumb your mockingboard hardware in.

Note that the IIc doesn't actually have any "mouse hardware" per se, but rather a hacked version of the game port, so there is no actual usage of $C0C0-$C0CF in the IIc itself. In practice, this means you should be able to add a Mockingboard to "slot 4" without disabling the mouse firmware at all, since the Mockingboard has no firmware.

In later IIc's (and the IIc plus) that have the memory expansion connector, things are a bit different. The mouse firmware has moved to slot 7, making way for the memory expansion card firmware at slot 4. This should still not present a problem in practice, since it's mechanically impossible to install both a memory expansion card and your mockingboard at the same time.

The IIc plus presents a different challenge, since you're gating the bus at the CPU, which can operate at either 1Mhz or 4Mhz depending on whether the accelerator is active. It's possible your design could be made to work this way, though I suspect it would be much simpler to tap the address bus on the MMU rather than the CPU, this way you're always on the 1Mhz side of the accelerator circuit.

Matt
BLuRry
2016-01-05 07:28:02 UTC
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Post by mdj
Post by ian kim
Dear all,
I have new project for APPLE IIc.
APPLE IIc is compact but there is no sound card and it is one of weakness of APPLE IIc. so, I decided to build a mocking board compatible sound card for APPLE IIc.
To achieve it, It required a slot for mocking board but, APPLE IIc doesn't have any slot and my fist step is trying to make virtual slot for mocking board.
Now, I have good progress and now I can have signals and successfully did mask the slot#4 area.
Nice proof of concept!
I note that you're decoding $C400-$C4FF, which is the slot ROM (/IOSEL) area for slot 4. The IO locations for each slot are actually located at $C080+(slotno * 16) - so for slot 4 that's $C0C0-$C0CF. Those are the locations you'll need to decode to plumb your mockingboard hardware in.
Note that the IIc doesn't actually have any "mouse hardware" per se, but rather a hacked version of the game port, so there is no actual usage of $C0C0-$C0CF in the IIc itself. In practice, this means you should be able to add a Mockingboard to "slot 4" without disabling the mouse firmware at all, since the Mockingboard has no firmware.
In later IIc's (and the IIc plus) that have the memory expansion connector, things are a bit different. The mouse firmware has moved to slot 7, making way for the memory expansion card firmware at slot 4. This should still not present a problem in practice, since it's mechanically impossible to install both a memory expansion card and your mockingboard at the same time.
The IIc plus presents a different challenge, since you're gating the bus at the CPU, which can operate at either 1Mhz or 4Mhz depending on whether the accelerator is active. It's possible your design could be made to work this way, though I suspect it would be much simpler to tap the address bus on the MMU rather than the CPU, this way you're always on the 1Mhz side of the accelerator circuit.
Matt
That's true that those are the I/O lines, but mockingboard uses the rom address lines for the ACIA chips, not the I/O lines. It's a very odd card, and AFAIK the only situation where you'd ever see a WRITE to what is normally slot rom space.
mdj
2016-01-05 10:15:51 UTC
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Post by BLuRry
That's true that those are the I/O lines, but mockingboard uses the rom address lines for the ACIA chips, not the I/O lines. It's a very odd card, and AFAIK the only situation where you'd ever see a WRITE to what is normally slot rom space.
I just had a near-religious recoil as if something sacred had been violated ... ;-) Thanks for the correction - I had no idea.

I guess it makes sense - two 6522's is 32 registers that can be directly mapped into /IOSEL, but would require a latch and thus double accesses if mapped to /DEVSEL.

It's a pity nobody ever did a better one; perhaps with some firmware to make access from BASIC simple and the registers mapped into $C800 space.

Anyway, apologies to Ian for the misdirection!
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