Discussion:
Joust game
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golfrock
2009-01-27 03:24:15 UTC
Permalink
I pulled out my disks to do some retro gaming. The Joust disk started
up fine in my ROM 1 which has a 4MB card in it. I played a few games
and then played some other games only to go back to Joust and have it
freeze up just as I begin to fly around. Reboot, same thing. Today,
it booted up fine and again I played a few games then later it
freezes.

Very strange. Anything else plays fine. I cleaned the drive heads.

This is the one game that you don't see much on eBay like the others.

I suppose the disk could be getting a bad sector. I will try again to
copy it but I don't think CII+ could do it the last time I tried.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Robert
Michael J. Mahon
2009-01-27 21:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by golfrock
I pulled out my disks to do some retro gaming. The Joust disk started
up fine in my ROM 1 which has a 4MB card in it. I played a few games
and then played some other games only to go back to Joust and have it
freeze up just as I begin to fly around. Reboot, same thing. Today,
it booted up fine and again I played a few games then later it
freezes.
Very strange. Anything else plays fine. I cleaned the drive heads.
This is the one game that you don't see much on eBay like the others.
I suppose the disk could be getting a bad sector. I will try again to
copy it but I don't think CII+ could do it the last time I tried.
You might want to run a RAM test. Intermittent/marginal RAM can easily
cause freezes, and there's more stuff to fail in RAM than in anything
else on your machine.

-michael

******** Note new website URL ********

NadaNet and AppleCrate II for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
golfrock
2009-01-28 01:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Hey Michael,

It seems to be a "warm up" thing. If I use the computer for a while
doing other things, then Joust works.

Thanks,
Robert
Michael J. Mahon
2009-01-28 07:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by golfrock
Hey Michael,
It seems to be a "warm up" thing. If I use the computer for a while
doing other things, then Joust works.
Again, RAM is a likely culprit.

-michael

******** Note new website URL ********

NadaNet and AppleCrate II for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
Jeff Blakeney
2009-01-28 17:14:57 UTC
Permalink
To: golfrock
Post by golfrock
I pulled out my disks to do some retro gaming. The Joust disk started
up fine in my ROM 1 which has a 4MB card in it. I played a few games
and then played some other games only to go back to Joust and have it
freeze up just as I begin to fly around. Reboot, same thing. Today,
it booted up fine and again I played a few games then later it
freezes.
It is possible one of the other programs is changing something in memory
(possibly a softswitch) that isn't getting reset by doing a reboot and
that is causing Joust to fail.

Have you tried turning the power off and back on again to boot Joust
after having played something else?
golfrock
2009-01-29 03:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blakeney
It is possible one of the other programs is changing something in memory
(possibly a softswitch) that isn't getting reset by doing a reboot and
that is causing Joust to fail.
Have you tried turning the power off and back on again to boot Joust
after having played something else?
Hi Jeff,

Yes, this IIGS doesn't have a hard drive. Just a GS RAM III 4MB
card. I only use it for the Apple II games that have to boot from the
disk. I use my AE power unit to cycle the machine.

Michael, I will swap out the memory card when I get time to dig out
my other cards and see what happens.

Thanks,
Robert
Polymorph
2009-01-29 04:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Michael,  I will swap out the memory card when I get time to dig out
my other cards and see what happens.
Robert,

As you are only running Apple II games (i.e. not IIgs specific) they
should not be using the IIgs memory expansion card at all, but rather
the soldered RAM on your motherboard (the emulated //e memory) - it is
likely that if bad RAM is to blame that it would either require
desoldering the bad chips and replacing them, or getting a new
motherboard. Having said that, it can't hurt to pull the 4Mb RAM card
out and re-test - you never know, you might get lucky.

If its only Joust that is causing issues though, maybe there is
something going bad on the disk, a timing issue with your floppy
drive, or maybe even a mild incompatibility with the IIgs? You would
think that if bad memory was to blame you would see problems in other
games/software as well. Have you tried running the IIgs' inbuilt
diagnostic test? Just throwing some ideas around...

Hope this helps,
Mike
BLuRry
2009-01-29 04:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Polymorph
If its only Joust that is causing issues though, maybe there is
something going bad on the disk, a timing issue with your floppy
drive, or maybe even a mild incompatibility with the IIgs? You would
think that if bad memory was to blame you would see problems in other
games/software as well. Have you tried running the IIgs' inbuilt
diagnostic test? Just throwing some ideas around...
Have you tried running Joust in KEGS?

-B
sicklittlemonkey
2009-01-30 05:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by BLuRry
Have you tried running Joust in KEGS?
It could also be the disk, since it's an original.

Right now there are only cracked versions on Asimov.
It would be nice to get a NIB of Joust there.
Try using dsk2nib.

Cheers,
Nick.
lyricalnanoha
2009-01-30 05:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by sicklittlemonkey
Post by BLuRry
Have you tried running Joust in KEGS?
It could also be the disk, since it's an original.
Right now there are only cracked versions on Asimov.
It would be nice to get a NIB of Joust there.
Try using dsk2nib.
Cheers,
Nick.
There is a version on the Brutal Deluxe site that's not 'tro'd, though
still cracked. (It still uses its own loader)

-uso.
sicklittlemonkey
2009-01-30 12:44:59 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 30, 2:59 pm, lyricalnanoha
Post by lyricalnanoha
There is a version on the Brutal Deluxe site that's not 'tro'd, though
still cracked. (It still uses its own loader)
That's good to know.

But I'd still like a NIB to see why the original is flakey.

Cheers,
Nick.
Toinet
2009-01-30 19:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by sicklittlemonkey
On Jan 30, 2:59 pm, lyricalnanoha
Post by lyricalnanoha
There is a version on the Brutal Deluxe site that's not 'tro'd, though
still cracked. (It still uses its own loader)
That's good to know.
But I'd still like a NIB to see why the original is flakey.
Cheers,
Nick.
If not RAM, then... old disk maybe.

If you refer to the protection I there: http://www.hackzapple.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=56
then we could say that your disk is physically damaged. The protection
uses a classic 4*4 coding scheme weith $800 bytes per track. Such a
routine offers fast data loading but less error checks.

If you still want to play with an original program, go to eBay ;-) If
you would like to give a try to my 2008 crack: http://brutal-deluxe.fr/crack/

antoine
sicklittlemonkey
2009-01-31 00:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toinet
If not RAM, then... old disk maybe.
If you refer to the protection I there:http://www.hackzapple.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=56
then we could say that your disk is physically damaged. The protection
uses a classic 4*4 coding scheme weith $800 bytes per track. Such a
routine offers fast data loading but less error checks.
If you still want to play with an original program, go to eBay ;-) If
you would like to give a try to my 2008 crack:http://brutal-deluxe.fr/crack/
antoine
It's great you've already done Joust too, Antoine.
My Moon Patrol is flakey, so this is what I suspected.
Can we pursuade you to post NIB images too?

It doesn't make sense for all software, but for simple ones like Joust
and Moon Patrol (which I put on asimov) NIB is enough to capture the
protection in a working format.

Also, I noticed your WINTER.D3S2.DSK is 0 bytes.
Is this intentional? I.e. D3S2 is not used?

Cheers,
Nick.
lyricalnanoha
2009-01-31 01:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by sicklittlemonkey
It's great you've already done Joust too, Antoine.
My Moon Patrol is flakey, so this is what I suspected.
Can we pursuade you to post NIB images too?
It doesn't make sense for all software, but for simple ones like Joust
and Moon Patrol (which I put on asimov) NIB is enough to capture the
protection in a working format.
Also, I noticed your WINTER.D3S2.DSK is 0 bytes.
Is this intentional? I.e. D3S2 is not used?
Cheers,
Nick.
I based my new DOS-load Galaxian on his crack xD;

I should really figure out how to crack MP and Joust to run single-load,
even if it takes pushing stuff up onto the LC o.x

-uso.
sicklittlemonkey
2009-01-31 05:23:05 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 31, 10:16 am, lyricalnanoha
Post by lyricalnanoha
I should really figure out how to crack MP and Joust to run single-load,
even if it takes pushing stuff up onto the LC o.x
-uso.
Yeah, MP will be easy if you use the LC.

I have it nearly done for 48k using LZ compression, but Real Life got
in the way before I could finish it.

Cheers,
Nick.
Patrick Schaefer
2009-01-31 11:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by sicklittlemonkey
Also, I noticed your WINTER.D3S2.DSK is 0 bytes.
Is this intentional? I.e. D3S2 is not used?
What is WINTER.SxSy ?

Epyx Winter games used only two sides of a disk. Was there something
like Winter Games II? The program does not show any title in its intro.


Patrick
Toinet
2009-01-31 18:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by sicklittlemonkey
It's great you've already done Joust too, Antoine.
My Moon Patrol is flakey, so this is what I suspected.
Can we pursuade you to post NIB images too?
It doesn't make sense for all software, but for simple ones like Joust
and Moon Patrol (which I put on asimov) NIB is enough to capture the
protection in a working format.
I understand the usefulness of SST to create NIB images but I really
dislike the way it works. I would like to get a ProDOS version of it
with the NIB being created in one pass!
Post by sicklittlemonkey
Also, I noticed your WINTER.D3S2.DSK is 0 bytes.
Is this intentional? I.e. D3S2 is not used?
Disk 3 side 2 is probably a mistake. I have just removed it. I have a
0kb disk image on my HFS partition, I will check with the original
game.
Post by sicklittlemonkey
Cheers,
Nick.
antoine
golfrock
2009-01-31 16:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the comments. The machine is fine with anything else.
Warm or cold. So I don't think the mobo RAM is flakey.

I have two original Joust disks and each one does that. I thought it
was a sector going bad when I found the second disk and it worked
properly the first time. Then later, it did the same thing.

I couldn't play these at all on a ROM 3. That's why I setup a ROM 1
for these older games. Does anyone know of a KVFJ switch? That would
be kayboard, video, floppy, joystick.

Thanks,
Robert
Michael J. Mahon
2009-01-31 23:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by golfrock
Thanks for the comments. The machine is fine with anything else.
Warm or cold. So I don't think the mobo RAM is flakey.
That may or may not be the case.

RAM failures, including intermittent or temperature-dependent
failures, may be pattern sensitive, and, in any case, require that
the system or a program actually use the flaky RAM.

It is not at all uncommon for bad RAM to show up only under specific
conditions of use. A RAM test is designed to exercise *every* address
using several data and address patterns that tend to expose most RAM
problems. It can even help if you suspect temperature-dependency to
use a hair dryer to heat the parts and some cooling spray to cool
them down (to confirm that the error comes and goes).

The most fundamental troubleshooting technique is called "moving the
problem", and involves changing parts in a combinatorial way so that
the bad "chunk" can be identified. (If there is more than one bad
chunk, this strategy becomes much more difficult.)

So, to eliminate the disk as a source of the problem, you could try
running it on another (essentially identical) machine and see if the
failure moves with the disk.

To eliminate RAM in the same way would require moving the RAM of the
failing machine to another machine to see if that makes it fail in the
same way. Or the equivalent "negative" approach would be to replace
the suspect RAM with known-good RAM and verify that the problem does
not occur (though this approach does not actually *confirm* that the
original RAM was bad, it is a common technique).

In the latter case, a confirmation test would be to replace the original
RAM and re-confirm the presence of the error. If the error no longer
occurs, then it may be that the act of removing/replacing the RAM
actually removed the fault (like a bad solder joint).

The problem is that your RAM is soldered to the board, and so is not
easily replaced.

That's why a thorough RAM test (more thorough than the built-in self-
test) is the most practical way to proceed to determine if the RAM is
bad. If it fails the test, then it's bad. Unfortunately, if it passes
the test, it's not necessarily good--maybe the test just didn't find
the error!

If you are faced with a situation where any one of several things may
be faulty, you need to consider both the likelihood of each thing
failing and the difficulty of testing for its fault. Then proceed
by doing the tests in the order of decreasing probability of success
and increasing difficulty to minimize time and effort in finding the
fault.

"Hunches", unless based on solid experience, are usually just time-
wasters.
Post by golfrock
I have two original Joust disks and each one does that. I thought it
was a sector going bad when I found the second disk and it worked
properly the first time. Then later, it did the same thing.
So it seems unlikely that the problem is the disk--just as unlikely
as two disks developing identical problems. ;-)

Of course, the disk drive is common to both situations, and it may
have a problem that is only detected by Joust... Or the computer,
or any of its parts, like the RAM.
Post by golfrock
I couldn't play these at all on a ROM 3. That's why I setup a ROM 1
for these older games. Does anyone know of a KVFJ switch? That would
be kayboard, video, floppy, joystick.
You're kidding, right? ;-)

-michael

******** Note new website URL ********

NadaNet and AppleCrate II for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
mdj
2009-02-01 00:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael J. Mahon
The most fundamental troubleshooting technique is called "moving the
problem", and involves changing parts in a combinatorial way so that
the bad "chunk" can be identified.  (If there is more than one bad
chunk, this strategy becomes much more difficult.)
A while ago, I used just this technique to isolate a bad RAM chip on a
Transwarp card. I progressively cycled the chips to 'position 1' , and
after only two swaps, a fault that only showed up running Apple Pascal
with a 1mb ramdisk resulted in a machine that wouldn't even boot.

I'm glad I tried the Transwarp memory before moving to the RamWorks
itself ;-)

Matt
Polymorph
2009-02-01 07:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by golfrock
I have two original Joust disks and each one does that. I thought it
was a sector going bad when I found the second disk and it worked
properly the first time. Then later, it did the same thing.
So it seems unlikely that the problem is the disk--just as unlikely
as two disks developing identical problems. ;-)
One way to almost completely eliminate the problem being disk related
(if it isn't already eliminated) would be to download a non-original
Joust image from one of the usual sources (like Asimov) and write it
to a known good disk. If it still experiences the same problems then
you know it aint the original disk(s), but rather that Joust is
exercising some failing component in your system.

Cheers,
Mike

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