Discussion:
USB Stick support of IIgs?
(too old to reply)
Sam Latella
2009-09-23 01:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Is there anyway a IIgs is able to access a usb stick? I know that compact flash is now cable for the IIgs. However, it would be nice to have USB support? I have my IIgs setup in a tower case and am now installing my 800k drive in the tower case. It would be nice to have usb support, if possible I woud then thread a connection to the front of my tower case for quick and easy swapping of files if thats possible of course?

Apple II Forever!
e p chandler
2009-09-23 01:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Is there anyway a IIgs is able to access a usb stick?  I know that compact flash is now cable for the IIgs.  However, it would be nice to have USB support?  I have my IIgs setup in a tower case and am now installing my 800k drive in the tower case.  It would be nice to have usb support, if possible I woud then thread a connection to the front of my tower case for quick and easy swapping of files if thats possible of course?
Apple II Forever!
What file system? I thought M$ had a patent on FAT.

--- e
Jeremy Visser
2009-09-23 01:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by e p chandler
What file system? I thought M$ had a patent on FAT.
That's to do with long file names, IIRC. If you write an FS driver that
only supports the 8.3 convention, I believe you're in safe waters.

Besides, companies have been shipping Linux distros for years that fully
support FAT32 with LFNs without any problems. Well, actually, I might
have to eat my words — I think the TomTom debacle was something to do
with FAT.
Wizard Of Oz
2009-09-23 21:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Visser
Post by e p chandler
What file system? I thought M$ had a patent on FAT.
That's to do with long file names, IIRC. If you write an FS driver that
only supports the 8.3 convention, I believe you're in safe waters.
A couple of people at the local LUG say they reformat the thumb to
contain multiple partitions. They say it's easier to deal with on their
machines. The partitions do not necessarily have to be FAT. The OP could
format a partition as HFS and use the appropriate FST, There is nothing
saying it can't be formatted using the MSDOS FST (personally I wouldn't
bother).
Post by Jeremy Visser
Besides, companies have been shipping Linux distros for years that fully
support FAT32 with LFNs without any problems. Well, actually, I might
have to eat my words — I think the TomTom debacle was something to do
with FAT.
I think you're correct on both points.

The more I think about it the more I think an ext3/4 FST might be
useful. Another useful utility would be a program to determine the size
of a device then allow the user to format as many partitions as they
want on there. I can picture the reaction of the border agents when
bringing a thumb drive into the States... "This guy has a whole bunch of
32 MB partitions on his 32 GB memory stick. AND I CAN"T READ ANY OF
THEM!" ;-)

Later
Mike
Jeremy Visser
2009-09-24 09:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wizard Of Oz
I can picture the reaction of the border agents when
bringing a thumb drive into the States... "This guy has a whole bunch of
32 MB partitions on his 32 GB memory stick. AND I CAN"T READ ANY OF
THEM!"
This is starting to get offtopic, but I think it’s doubtful that would
faze border security. They probably just dd the flash drive and pipe it
through a program which looks for keywords — y’know, like “PET bottle”,
“washing powder”, “Bin Laden”, and other really suspicious terms.
Warren 'Llama' Ernst
2009-09-23 19:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Is there anyway a IIgs is able to access a usb stick?  I know that compact flash is now cable for the IIgs.  However, it would be nice to have USB support?  I have my IIgs setup in a tower case and am now installing my 800k drive in the tower case.  It would be nice to have usb support, if possible I woud then thread a connection to the front of my tower case for quick and easy swapping of files if thats possible of course?
Apple II Forever!
The just thread a compact flash reader to the front of your case and
then you are all set. I've used a simple IDE-to-CF adapter cable to
make the CF cards on my Apple II external.

In fact, here is a site that has the adapter and even some external
mounting brackets for the front of a PC; just add an IDE cable and
you're all set!

http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/ad44midecf.asp

-Warr
Bill Buckels
2009-09-24 00:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Latella
Is there anyway a IIgs is able to access a usb stick? I know that compact
flash is now cable for the IIgs.
IMO the CF cards are the way to go and we are darned lucky to have those...
I highly doubt that the demand will ever warrant providing a usb reader with
the appropriate hardware and firmware or drivers unless some brilliant EE
decides to do us a favour for the hellery of it...

Have you tried the Microdrive? Mine works excellently. Or are you just
interested in something that hasn't been done? If that's the case and you
decide to do it I am sure many of us would like one.

My C64 has a FAT MMC cartridge but no USB stick either... but I am darned
lucky to have what I have because both these computers can take disk images
directly from the Internet using my Windows machine as a host and it is
loads of fun.

I can't imagine how a USB stick would improve on any of this except to be
doing what I am currently doing in a different way.
Bill Buckels
2009-09-24 00:36:22 UTC
Permalink
"Bill Buckels" <***@mts.net> wrote:

<snip>

I think it is important to note that Carte-Blanche provides SD RAM support
rather than CF support, but since this does not apply to the GS anyway it is
not relevant to this thread and I just mention it as an aside and I wish my
CB would get to Canada... soon I hope:)
Alex Freed
2009-09-24 08:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Buckels
I think it is important to note that Carte-Blanche provides SD RAM support
rather than CF support, but since this does not apply to the GS anyway it is
not relevant to this thread and I just mention it as an aside and I wish my
CB would get to Canada... soon I hope:)
The CarteBlanche does not support the specific GS video modes via its
VGA interface but there is no reason AFAIK for it not to provide mass
storage to a GS computer.

-Alex.
Charlie
2009-09-24 19:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Freed
Post by Bill Buckels
I think it is important to note that Carte-Blanche provides SD
RAM support rather than CF support, but since this does not apply
to the GS anyway it is not relevant to this thread and I just
mention it as an aside and I wish my CB would get to Canada...
soon I hope:)
The CarteBlanche does not support the specific GS video modes via
its VGA interface but there is no reason AFAIK for it not to
provide mass storage to a GS computer.
-Alex.
Is there any reason that the Carte Blanche card couldn't support GS
video modes if an application were written for it?

Charlie
Alex Freed
2009-09-25 01:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Is there any reason that the Carte Blanche card couldn't support GS
video modes if an application were written for it?
Carte Blanche monitors the signals on the slot connector and maintains
a copy of Apple's video memory that it can scan at VGA rate.
As long all the writes to GS's video memory are visible on the slot,
it can be done.


-Alex.
Charlie
2009-09-25 03:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Freed
Post by Charlie
Is there any reason that the Carte Blanche card couldn't support
GS video modes if an application were written for it?
Carte Blanche monitors the signals on the slot connector and
maintains
a copy of Apple's video memory that it can scan at VGA rate.
As long all the writes to GS's video memory are visible on the
slot,
it can be done.
-Alex.
That's good news Alex. Now all I have to do is learn how to write
the code (bitstream) for it <grin>.

Charlie
larwe
2009-09-24 13:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Buckels
I highly doubt that the demand will ever warrant providing a usb reader with
the appropriate hardware and firmware or drivers unless some brilliant EE
decides to do us a favour for the hellery of it...
A few silicon vendors (Cypress and Atmel come to mind) have developed
parts that have a USB-OTG interface and come with the firmware
required to operate mass-storage devices from it, specifically in
order to make it easier to lash USB sticks to systems that could never
justify the complexity of a full USB stack.
Jeff Blakeney
2009-09-24 18:01:45 UTC
Permalink
To: Bill Buckels
Post by Bill Buckels
I can't imagine how a USB stick would improve on any of this except to be
doing what I am currently doing in a different way.
Well, maybe you have CF readers in your computers but there are a lot of
people who don't. I don't own a single CF card as I don't have a reader
for one. I do have six USB ports on my computer and pretty much
everyone I know also has USB ports so I have several USB sticks that I
can use to share data with them. I also have an external USB enclosure
with a 3.5" hard drive (currently only a 250 MB) in it that is great for
sharing data. I also have an MP3 player with 1 GB of internal storage
and it currently has a 2 GB SD card in it as well but the only way I can
access either of those bits of storage is through USB.

Having the ability to read and write USB sticks or other storage on my
IIgs would be fantastic as I wouldn't need to do null modem transfers or
use a SCSI card in my PC and have my magneto-optical drives hooked up to
my IIgs and PC and swap cartridges (which are fairly large, noisy and
power hungry and limited to 300 MB at a time).
Warren 'Llama' Ernst
2009-09-24 20:39:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 24, 11:01 am, "Jeff Blakeney"
Post by Jeff Blakeney
Post by Bill Buckels
I can't imagine how a USB stick would improve on any of this except to be
doing what I am currently doing in a different way.
Well, maybe you have CF readers in your computers but there are a lot of
people who don't.  I don't own a single CF card as I don't have a reader
for one.  I do have six USB ports on my computer and pretty much
everyone I know also has USB ports so I have several USB sticks that I
can use to share data with them.  
You can get a USB to CF Card Reader for as little as $5 on Amazon. You
can get a cardreader that reads 35 different formats for $25 or so,
and some of them fit into a front-panel drive bracket. There's no way
a USB-enabled device for your Apple II will ever be as cheap or easy
to implement as a CF Reader for your PC or Mac, so there's no point
arguing against it.
Post by Jeff Blakeney
Having the ability to read and write USB sticks or other storage on my
IIgs would be fantastic as I wouldn't need to do null modem transfers or
use a SCSI card in my PC and have my magneto-optical drives hooked up to
  my IIgs and PC and swap cartridges (which are fairly large, noisy and
power hungry and limited to 300 MB at a time).
Agreed; CF cards and a Microdrive or CFFA card meet this solution.
Given how rare floppy drives are for PCs these days, the CF solution
is even more likely to work on a wider range of computers than getting
your Apple II a rare 1.44MB SuperDrive floppy drive and controller and
shuffling floppy disks around...

-Warr
Jeff Blakeney
2009-09-26 22:36:15 UTC
Permalink
To: Warren 'Llama' Ernst
Post by Warren 'Llama' Ernst
You can get a USB to CF Card Reader for as little as $5 on Amazon. You
can get a cardreader that reads 35 different formats for $25 or so,
and some of them fit into a front-panel drive bracket. There's no way
a USB-enabled device for your Apple II will ever be as cheap or easy
to implement as a CF Reader for your PC or Mac, so there's no point
arguing against it.
Sure, I can get that functionality for my PC cheap but it is something
else I have to buy and install and I don't even need it. Why buy a card
reader and a card that I might not be able to share data with other
people, because they don't have a reader for that type of media, rather
than just using USB stick seeing as pretty much everyone has USB ports
built into their computers?

When we get to talking about the Apple II, sure I can buy an IDE card
for the Apple II and a CF adaptor for it or just buy a CFFA card but
then I still need to buy the reader mentioned above for my PC too. But
those cards are limited to just being one or two IDE storage devices,
whether hard drives or CF.

If someone were to create a USB interface for the Apple II, then we
would have the potential to connect up to 127 devices (if you bought
enough USB hubs :) ) that could be storage, serial communications,
network communications, printer interface, joystick interface or
whatever. You'd just need drivers written to support these things.
Much more useful in my mind and worth spending money on. Right now, I
have SCSI storage on my Apple IIs so I can't justify spending money on
an IDE storage solution.
Post by Warren 'Llama' Ernst
Agreed; CF cards and a Microdrive or CFFA card meet this solution.
Given how rare floppy drives are for PCs these days, the CF solution
is even more likely to work on a wider range of computers than getting
your Apple II a rare 1.44MB SuperDrive floppy drive and controller and
shuffling floppy disks around...
If we had a USB interface for the Apple II, USB sticks would be a
solution that works on an even wider range of computers than CF. :)
Michael Black
2009-09-27 03:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blakeney
To: Warren 'Llama' Ernst
Post by Warren 'Llama' Ernst
You can get a USB to CF Card Reader for as little as $5 on Amazon. You
can get a cardreader that reads 35 different formats for $25 or so,
and some of them fit into a front-panel drive bracket. There's no way
a USB-enabled device for your Apple II will ever be as cheap or easy
to implement as a CF Reader for your PC or Mac, so there's no point
arguing against it.
Sure, I can get that functionality for my PC cheap but it is something else I
have to buy and install and I don't even need it. Why buy a card reader and
a card that I might not be able to share data with other people, because they
don't have a reader for that type of media, rather than just using USB stick
seeing as pretty much everyone has USB ports built into their computers?
Because what's needed to get USB on the Apple II will be expensive. It
will require a lot of effort (if it's at all possible, the easiest method
is likely by adding a whole other CPU and maybe one that is much better
than the Apple's 6502) and will cost a lot because that effort and the
parts needed has to be divided by a relative handful of buyers. Chances
are good that any product for the Apple II nowadays would have to be
hand assembled, which drives up cost; the run would be so small that the
cost of a proper assembly line would be impossible.

Meanwhile, that $20 reader and that no more than $20 card will be vastly
cheaper than USB on the Apple II, not just because any decent computer
nowadays has lots of power to it and the operating system is designed for
USB, but the devices can be sold to loads and loads of people, so the
design costs can be spread over those people, and the manufacturing can
be done on a mass assembly line.

Just because you want something doesn't mean the idea is practical.

Michael
Post by Jeff Blakeney
When we get to talking about the Apple II, sure I can buy an IDE card for the
Apple II and a CF adaptor for it or just buy a CFFA card but then I still
need to buy the reader mentioned above for my PC too. But those cards are
limited to just being one or two IDE storage devices, whether hard drives or
CF.
If someone were to create a USB interface for the Apple II, then we would
have the potential to connect up to 127 devices (if you bought enough USB
hubs :) ) that could be storage, serial communications, network
communications, printer interface, joystick interface or whatever. You'd
just need drivers written to support these things. Much more useful in my
mind and worth spending money on. Right now, I have SCSI storage on my Apple
IIs so I can't justify spending money on an IDE storage solution.
Post by Warren 'Llama' Ernst
Agreed; CF cards and a Microdrive or CFFA card meet this solution.
Given how rare floppy drives are for PCs these days, the CF solution
is even more likely to work on a wider range of computers than getting
your Apple II a rare 1.44MB SuperDrive floppy drive and controller and
shuffling floppy disks around...
If we had a USB interface for the Apple II, USB sticks would be a solution
that works on an even wider range of computers than CF. :)
larwe
2009-09-27 14:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Because what's needed to get USB on the Apple II will be expensive.  It
will require a lot of effort (if it's at all possible, the easiest method
Not really. Freescale has a bunch of parts with on-chip USB-OTG
interface and they supply the reference IP to access storage class
devices. Yes, it's a second processor (a ColdFire) but it's not overly
expensive. It's more or less one chip (about $9), the USB connector,
and a crystal.

It would even be possible to hand-build it. Freescale supplies the
chip on a little demo board that brings all the pins out to .100"
headers. Look at the DEMOJM kit (it comes with one 8-bit xx09 module
and one ColdFire module).
Jeff Blakeney
2009-09-27 19:18:21 UTC
Permalink
To: Michael Black
Post by Michael Black
Because what's needed to get USB on the Apple II will be expensive. It
will require a lot of effort (if it's at all possible, the easiest method
is likely by adding a whole other CPU and maybe one that is much better
than the Apple's 6502) and will cost a lot because that effort and the
parts needed has to be divided by a relative handful of buyers. Chances
are good that any product for the Apple II nowadays would have to be
hand assembled, which drives up cost; the run would be so small that the
cost of a proper assembly line would be impossible.
I understand what you are saying but at present I still have no plans to
start using CF. However, to address one of your concerns above, the
cost of a microcontroller capable of being a go between for an Apple II
to USB can cost as little as a few dollars. I've seen ARM based
microcontrollers that include support for USB, SD/MMC, Ethernet, Flash
RAM, RAM and more running at 100-200 MHz being sold in single quantities
for 10-12 USD which has way more capability than needed in this case.

If a USB interface, even limited to only reading and writing USB
storage, were to be made available, I'd probably jump on one of those.
Vince Briel demonstrated an Apple II USB card at KFest this year but I
believe the Apple II could only ask the card to give a list of files on
the USB storage to allow you to select what MP3 song you wanted to play
and the card did all the reading and playing. I don't know if he plans
on taking it any farther than that.
Post by Michael Black
Meanwhile, that $20 reader and that no more than $20 card will be vastly
cheaper than USB on the Apple II,
You are forgetting the cost of an IDE interface for the Apple II here.
I'd have to buy a CFFA (IDE interface that comes with an IDE to CF
adaptor) or a card like a Vulcan, MicroDrive, Focus or whatever IDE
interface and an IDE to CF adaptor. This increases the cost by another
100 to 200 USD.
Post by Michael Black
Just because you want something doesn't mean the idea is practical.
Just because an idea is impractical doesn't mean I shouldn't want it. :)
magnusfalkirk
2009-09-27 13:34:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 26, 5:36 pm, "Jeff Blakeney"
Post by Jeff Blakeney
If we had a USB interface for the Apple II, USB sticks would be a
solution that works on an even wider range of computers than CF.  :)
Then you might want to check out the latest from Rich Dreher's CFFA
site: http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php
as he is working on a new version of the card, he's calling it the
CFFA 3000, and in the description of it he says he wants to have USB
flash drive support for storage of .dsk files. He's saying that he
might have the card available about mid 2010. If this is what you're
looking for you might want to let him know you'd be interested in the
card, I already have.

Dean
Nick Westgate
2009-09-27 16:39:53 UTC
Permalink
If this is what you're looking for you might want to let him know
you'd be interested in the card, I already have.
More explicitly, Rich says:
"I am looking to gauge interest in this product. If you think you
would be interested in purchasing an advanced CFFA type card with
floppy emulation and a couple of other goodies, please let me know.
Send me an E-mail."

So the more emails the better! ;-)

Cheers,
Nick.
Jeff Blakeney
2009-09-27 19:27:19 UTC
Permalink
To: magnusfalkirk
Post by magnusfalkirk
Then you might want to check out the latest from Rich Dreher's CFFA
site: http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php
as he is working on a new version of the card, he's calling it the
CFFA 3000, and in the description of it he says he wants to have USB
flash drive support for storage of .dsk files. He's saying that he
might have the card available about mid 2010. If this is what you're
looking for you might want to let him know you'd be interested in the
card, I already have.
When the CFFA first came out I was very interested but I just never had
the funds to even consider buying one. I'm now back to work at a really
good pay rate so I'll be putting money aside for all the Apple II things
I've been wanting.

I'll have to e-mail Rich about this new version of the card and give him
my wish list for what I'd like to see it do.
Sam Latella
2009-09-27 21:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Dean for the info,

I just emailed Rich Dreher about my interest in the card... and will be
getting it once available.
I just like the fact it uses solid state memory drive much nicer design than
my ramfast scsi drive I have now.
I'll still keep the ramfast scsi since I have a 21meg floptical drive which
can write to HD disks.

I just dusted off my GS which has been out of service for 5 years (used the
GS emulators in that time period)... still works great.
The Rom03 Gs was installed in a tower case way back in 1995, and it has
inside
Ramfast Rev D Scsi Card
Transwarp GS modified to 12.5mhz
Grappler+ Printer card
2 gig scsi hard drive
21meg flopitical drive
Scsi CD Drive
40 watt amp booster inside the tower case to exploit the IIgs sound qualty.


Now I'm looking to add a few more features to the IIgs like the new CFFA
card,
and of course anything that will allow me to attach the IIgs to a VGA
monitor.
Not sure about going the route of SCART or not.

Anyway thanks for the tips
Post by magnusfalkirk
Post by magnusfalkirk
On Sep 26, 5:36 pm, "Jeff Blakeney"
If we had a USB interface for the Apple II, USB sticks would be a
solution that works on an even wider range of computers than CF.  :)
Then you might want to check out the latest from Rich Dreher's CFFA
http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php
Post by magnusfalkirk
as he is working on a new version of the card, he's calling it the
CFFA 3000, and in the description of it he says he wants to have USB
flash drive support for storage of .dsk files. He's saying that he
might have the card available about mid 2010. If this is what you're
looking for you might want to let him know you'd be interested in the
card, I already have.
Dean
Michael J. Mahon
2009-09-27 19:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blakeney
To: Warren 'Llama' Ernst
Post by Warren 'Llama' Ernst
You can get a USB to CF Card Reader for as little as $5 on Amazon. You
can get a cardreader that reads 35 different formats for $25 or so,
and some of them fit into a front-panel drive bracket. There's no way
a USB-enabled device for your Apple II will ever be as cheap or easy
to implement as a CF Reader for your PC or Mac, so there's no point
arguing against it.
Sure, I can get that functionality for my PC cheap but it is something
else I have to buy and install and I don't even need it. Why buy a card
reader and a card that I might not be able to share data with other
people, because they don't have a reader for that type of media, rather
than just using USB stick seeing as pretty much everyone has USB ports
built into their computers?
There are USB-connected CF reader/writers available for under $10, and
when combined with a CF card, *is* a USB-attached storage device for any
PC.
Post by Jeff Blakeney
When we get to talking about the Apple II, sure I can buy an IDE card
for the Apple II and a CF adaptor for it or just buy a CFFA card but
then I still need to buy the reader mentioned above for my PC too. But
those cards are limited to just being one or two IDE storage devices,
whether hard drives or CF.
If someone were to create a USB interface for the Apple II, then we
would have the potential to connect up to 127 devices (if you bought
enough USB hubs :) ) that could be storage, serial communications,
network communications, printer interface, joystick interface or
whatever. You'd just need drivers written to support these things. Much
more useful in my mind and worth spending money on. Right now, I have
SCSI storage on my Apple IIs so I can't justify spending money on an IDE
storage solution.
Wow. A single 2GB CF card contains more 32MB partitions than I can ever
mount, so I'm not sure I understand why multiple devices is a benefit.

I can unplug the CF card from my CFFA, plug it into my PC, and use
CiderPress to back up *all partitions* in a couple of minutes!

If I keep another CF card around, I can swap it into the CFFA and give
my Apple II a complete "brain transplant" in seconds. I have several
CF cards and have never found a reason to keep multiple "versions"--I
only use them to "sync" multiple Apple II's to my current "hard disk"
image.
Post by Jeff Blakeney
Post by Warren 'Llama' Ernst
Agreed; CF cards and a Microdrive or CFFA card meet this solution.
Given how rare floppy drives are for PCs these days, the CF solution
is even more likely to work on a wider range of computers than getting
your Apple II a rare 1.44MB SuperDrive floppy drive and controller and
shuffling floppy disks around...
If we had a USB interface for the Apple II, USB sticks would be a
solution that works on an even wider range of computers than CF. :)
Plugging in a USB device can certainly provide a complete Apple II
support environment for any PC, with hard disk images, CiderPress, and
emulators. But the incremental value in being able to plug it directly
into an Apple II (to access the hard disk image) seems pretty small to
me.

-michael

NadaNet 3.0 for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
sfahey
2009-09-28 18:45:24 UTC
Permalink
To: Michael J. Mahon
Re: Re: USB Stick support of IIgs?
By: Michael J. Mahon to comp.sys.apple2 on Sun Sep 27 2009 12:42 pm
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Wow. A single 2GB CF card contains more 32MB partitions than I can ever
mount, so I'm not sure I understand why multiple devices is a benefit.
Michael, it's simply not a convenience issue for some people. There are those,
who will make do, with what they have for as long as possible -- and as long as
cheap SCSI drives are obtainable, and his SCSI card doesn't flake out, there
simply is no impetus to replace it with something newer. The whole CF vs. USB
is a red herring, and a flimsy one at that if the convenience factor comes down
to deciding if a $5 card reader makes a difference or not.

You're wasting your logic.

Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
Michael J. Mahon
2009-09-29 00:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by sfahey
To: Michael J. Mahon
Re: Re: USB Stick support of IIgs?
By: Michael J. Mahon to comp.sys.apple2 on Sun Sep 27 2009 12:42 pm
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Wow. A single 2GB CF card contains more 32MB partitions than I can ever
mount, so I'm not sure I understand why multiple devices is a benefit.
Michael, it's simply not a convenience issue for some people. There are those,
who will make do, with what they have for as long as possible -- and as long as
cheap SCSI drives are obtainable, and his SCSI card doesn't flake out, there
simply is no impetus to replace it with something newer. The whole CF vs. USB
is a red herring, and a flimsy one at that if the convenience factor comes down
to deciding if a $5 card reader makes a difference or not.
You're wasting your logic.
Thanks, Sean. ;-)

I usually try to throw a little logic at the wall to see if it will
stick...but I don't like wasting it. ;-)

-michael

NadaNet 3.0 for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
Jeff Blakeney
2009-09-29 17:38:12 UTC
Permalink
To: Michael J. Mahon
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Wow. A single 2GB CF card contains more 32MB partitions than I can ever
mount, so I'm not sure I understand why multiple devices is a benefit.
Well, I currently have a 1.2 GB SCSI hard drive (11 ProDOS partitions
and 1 very large HFS partition) and a SCSI CD-ROM drive connected to my
IIgs. I can still hook up another SCSI device, say my SyQuest EZ135
drive or one of my magneto-optical drives, as well for doing back ups
and/or sneaker netting data to my PC (but I usually just use a null
modem cable for transferring small files).

USB allows hooking up even more devices so what is wrong with wanting to
be able to hook up some form of read/write storage (ie. hard drive,
stick, CF adaptor and card), read only storage (ie. CD-ROM, DVD-ROM),
serial connection (using a USB to serial adaptor), network connection
(using a USB to ethernet adaptor), printer, joystick or whatever?
Post by Michael J. Mahon
I usually try to throw a little logic at the wall to see if it will
stick...but I don't like wasting it. ;-)
I'm all for logic. In fact, some people get a little upset with me
sometimes because I'm almost always being logical. :)
mdj
2009-09-29 00:55:56 UTC
Permalink
  To: Michael J. Mahon
  Re: Re: USB Stick support of IIgs?
  By: Michael J. Mahon to comp.sys.apple2 on Sun Sep 27 2009 12:42 pm
 > Wow.  A single 2GB CF card contains more 32MB partitions than I can ever
 > mount, so I'm not sure I understand why multiple devices is a benefit.
 >
Michael, it's simply not a convenience issue for some people. There are those,
who will make do, with what they have for as long as possible -- and as long as
cheap SCSI drives are obtainable, and his SCSI card doesn't flake out, there
simply is no impetus to replace it with something newer. The whole CF vs. USB
is a red herring, and a flimsy one at that if the convenience factor comes down
to deciding if a $5 card reader makes a difference or not.
I'm one of those in the 'make do' camp, partly because I wanted a
decent performance upgrade to go with the move to solid state storage.
I figure I'll start using the disk image support on the Carte Blanche
once Alex gets it working again.

Which brings up the point, if you want USB, it's pretty easy to extend
CB to provide that functionality, since all the necessary cores are
ready and waiting to be glued together. You'd just need a small
transceiver chip to do appropriate bus signalling.

A (perhaps) cheaper approach would be to use FTDI's Vinculum chip
which provides USB host, FAT filesystem support and a simplistic
command interface to control those from the embedded system over SPI,
UART or parallel FIFO interfaces, all on a $30 DIP module that's a
doddle to interface to the Apple II bus. Simply add a bus transceiver,
quad NAND or two for IOSEL decoding and a ROM and you're operational
pretty quickly. It's no longer something that's complicated or
expensive to do.

FWIW, I like the idea, since it's a 'universal' solution: even once
USB 3.0 becomes common devices are going to support the older
protocols for a LONG time, so it's about as future proof as a storage
solution is likely to get, and using image files on a FAT filesystem
on the attached storage device mitigates the need for custom software
solutions - as you know there's still no Mac OS port of CiderPress.

However, since the above mentioned device has an onboard
microcontroller, flashable firmware, and capability to do 5v
signalling already, I think there is a fairly obvious use for such a
device on the Apple II in an area that thus far has received very
little love.

Matt
a2retro
2009-10-14 01:18:03 UTC
Permalink
To: mdj
Post by mdj
A (perhaps) cheaper approach would be to use FTDI's Vinculum chip
which provides USB host, FAT filesystem support and a simplistic
command interface to control those from the embedded system over SPI,
UART or parallel FIFO interfaces, all on a $30 DIP module that's a
doddle to interface to the Apple II bus. Simply add a bus transceiver,
quad NAND or two for IOSEL decoding and a ROM and you're operational
pretty quickly. It's no longer something that's complicated or
expensive to do.
Hey Matt,

I have had my eye on this chip ever since it came out ... sector level
access which is what I was originally interested in has never graduated
past debug status.

I'd be interested in hearing how you'd implement a ProDOS block device
driver on top of their FAT file system support. I always thought their
command protocol would be kind of ugly to implement for that purpose
but I never actually made the attempt.

I think RedSkull said he would take a whack at it but I don't think he
ever posted his results/findings.

Glenn

Jeff Blakeney
2009-09-26 22:16:15 UTC
Permalink
To: Jeff Blakeney
I also have an external USB enclosure with a 3.5" hard drive
(currently only a 250 MB) in it that is great for sharing data.
That should have said 250 _GB_. It is pretty sad when I'm starting to
consider that a small hard drive. :)
Sean Fahey
2009-09-24 14:46:57 UTC
Permalink
During KansasFest (and again at VCF), Vince Briel announced and
demonstrated his new MP3 player card for the Apple II -- this card has
a USB 1.1 interface, and though it's limited to 8.3 file name support,
there's no reason why some clever programmer couldn't creatively use
it for other purposes.

The MP3 card will go on sale soon, but I think the software for it is
already open source.

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Michael J. Mahon
2009-09-25 05:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Latella
Is there anyway a IIgs is able to access a usb stick?
I know that compact flash is now cable for the IIgs. However, it would be
nice to have USB support? I have my IIgs setup in a tower case and am now
installing my 800k drive in the tower case. It would be nice to have
usb support,
Post by Sam Latella
if possible I woud then thread a connection to the front of my tower
case for
Post by Sam Latella
quick and easy swapping of files if thats possible of course?
My solution is CFFA and a CF reader (along with most others) on the
front of my case. For any tower configuration, this is pretty easy.

As for Apple II support for USB-connected mass storage...it sure is
a lot of trouble to go through to simply read and write blocks!

Then there's the question of whether CiderPress supports USB drives
with ProDOS formats...something I've never tried.

-michael

NadaNet 3.0 for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
Buckster
2009-09-25 23:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Latella
Is there anyway a IIgs is able to access a usb stick?
I know that compact flash is now cable for the IIgs.  However, it would be
nice to have USB support?  I have my IIgs setup in a tower case and am now
 >installing my 800k drive in the tower case.  It would be nice to have
usb support,
 >if possible I woud then thread a connection to the front of my tower
case for
Post by Sam Latella
quick and easy swapping of files if thats possible of course?
My solution is CFFA and a CF reader (along with most others) on the
front of my case.  For any tower configuration, this is pretty easy.
As for Apple II support for USB-connected mass storage...it sure is
a lot of trouble to go through to simply read and write blocks!
Then there's the question of whether CiderPress supports USB drives
with ProDOS formats...something I've never tried.
-michael
NadaNet 3.0 for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page:  http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/
"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
What about the CFFA3000? Of course, it's not available, yet.

http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php
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