Discussion:
C compiler for an Apple II
(too old to reply)
Alberto Mazzocato
2007-05-16 08:37:14 UTC
Permalink
hello, I've a nice Apple II Europlus, and i'd like to run a C compiler
oer it. Is it possible?
Thanks,
Alberto.
BluPhoenyx
2007-05-16 10:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alberto Mazzocato
hello, I've a nice Apple II Europlus, and i'd like to run a C compiler
oer it. Is it possible?
Yes. For 8 bit Apples there is HyperC, Aztec C and Small C. The first 2
are easily found on the web. The last one is from The Byteworks and
should be available in it's 8 bit assembler version Orca/M which (I
think) you can get from Syndicomm. HyperC and Aztec C are not ANSI C
compliant but are well developed for the 8 bit Apple II. The legalities
of these systems are dubious but HyperC is considered legal as abandoned
shareware.

An alternate method would be the cross development system CC65. A well
developed, mostly ANSI C compiler.

As an aside, the GS has a robust development environment. Well,
technically 2. The Byteworks developer tools and the APW tools which
were based on them.

Cheers,
Mike T.
Alberto Mazzocato
2007-05-16 12:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Thanks so much, you're very expert.
Bye,
Alberto.
Post by BluPhoenyx
Yes. For 8 bit Apples there is HyperC, Aztec C and Small C. The first 2
are easily found on the web. The last one is from The Byteworks and
should be available in it's 8 bit assembler version Orca/M which (I
think) you can get from Syndicomm. HyperC and Aztec C are not ANSI C
compliant but are well developed for the 8 bit Apple II. The legalities
of these systems are dubious but HyperC is considered legal as abandoned
shareware.
An alternate method would be the cross development system CC65. A well
developed, mostly ANSI C compiler.
As an aside, the GS has a robust development environment. Well,
technically 2. The Byteworks developer tools and the APW tools which
were based on them.
Cheers,
Mike T.
Charlie Springer
2007-05-17 07:50:29 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 May 2007 01:37:14 -0700, Alberto Mazzocato wrote
(in article <***@4ax.com>):


Do you have a Mac? I used MPW for the GS. I'm sure I have a copy.

-- Charlie Springer
roughana
2007-05-18 00:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Springer
Do you have a Mac? I used MPW for the GS.
-- Charlie Springer
http://store.syndicomm.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=25&zenid=jb0hh85cuta93p0dtfr5197q81

regards,
Andrew
Alberto Mazzocato
2007-06-13 15:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Springer
Do you have a Mac? I used MPW for the GS. I'm sure I have a copy.
No, I have a II +
Post by Charlie Springer
-- Charlie Springer
John
2007-06-16 22:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alberto Mazzocato
Post by Charlie Springer
Do you have a Mac? I used MPW for the GS. I'm sure I have a copy.
No, I have a II +
Post by Charlie Springer
-- Charlie Springer
Would compiling small jobs on an Apple 2 be about as 1/3 as fast as an
original PC?
Michael J. Mahon
2007-06-17 07:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John
Post by Alberto Mazzocato
Post by Charlie Springer
Do you have a Mac? I used MPW for the GS. I'm sure I have a copy.
No, I have a II +
Post by Charlie Springer
-- Charlie Springer
Would compiling small jobs on an Apple 2 be about as 1/3 as fast as an
original PC?
That would be totally dependent on the efficiency of the compiler.

-michael

NadaNet file server for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
Paul Schlyter
2007-06-17 21:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by John
Would compiling small jobs on an Apple 2 be about as 1/3 as fast as an
original PC?
That would be totally dependent on the efficiency of the compiler.
-michael
Turbo Pascal (ver 1, 2 or 3) for CP/M-80 running on an Apple II+ with
a 6 MHz Z80 AppliCard complied approximately as quickly as the same
version of Turbo Pascal for MS-DOS running on a 4.77 MHZ 8088 PC.
Frankly, I don't remember which one of the two was fastest, but the
difference wasn't big.

An interpreted Applesoft program ran about half as fast on the 1 MHz
6502 compared to if the same program ran interpreted in MBASIC on
CP/M80 on a 6 MHZ Z80 AppliCard on the same Apple II.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/
s***@nwrain.net
2007-06-18 00:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Here is some info about small c to help you decide if it will do the
job.
The info comes from the small c manuel. Syndicomm sells small c.

Small-C is a subset of the full language. Specific differences will
be
discussed later. For someone writing production code, Small-C will be
a
risky choice. Small-C is primarily intended to fill three needs:

1. Small-C shows how to install a compiler in the ORCA/M
environment, and thus serves as an example to compiler writers who
would
like to bring a compiler up on ORCA/M.

2. Small-C comes with source code, and is written in itself. This
makes it a valuable tool for anyone who would like to learn more
about
compilers, or who needs to implement a special purpose language.

3. Small-C, while not a full implementation, will be useful to those
needing a compiler until full languages are available on ORCA/M.

If you fall into one of those categories, then Small-C is for you. If
you do
not, another compiler would probably be a better choice.

-=>JB<=-
Paul Schlyter
2007-06-18 07:12:08 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
<***@nwrain.net> wrote:
....................
....................
Post by s***@nwrain.net
3. Small-C, while not a full implementation, will be useful to those
needing a compiler until full languages are available on ORCA/M.
....and when will *that* happen? ;-)

And what does "full language" mean here? K&R-C as it existed in the
heydays of the Apple II? Or C-89? Or perhaps even C-99?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/
John
2007-06-18 16:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Schlyter
....................
....................
Post by s***@nwrain.net
3. Small-C, while not a full implementation, will be useful to those
needing a compiler until full languages are available on ORCA/M.
....and when will *that* happen? ;-)
And what does "full language" mean here? K&R-C as it existed in the
heydays of the Apple II? Or C-89? Or perhaps even C-99?
(from Answers.com )

----- snip snip -------------------------------

Small-C

In computing, Small-C is both a subset of the C programming language,
suitable for resource-limited microcomputers and embedded systems, and
an implementation of that subset. Originally valuable as an early
compiler for microcomputer systems available during the late 1970s and
early 1980s, the implementation has also been useful as an example
simple enough for teaching purposes.

The original compiler, written in Small-C for the Intel 8080 by Ron
Cain, appeared in the May 1980 issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal. James E.
Hendrix improved and extended the original compiler, and wrote The
Small-C Handbook. According to his own recollection, he developed
Small-C partially on a Unix system to which he had access. Small-C was
important for tiny computers in a manner somewhat analogous to the
importance of GCC for larger computers. Just like its Unix
counterparts, the compiler generates assembler code, which then must
be translated to machine code by an available assembler.

---- end of snip -----------

There is more in the article about why people found it interesting.
Paul Schlyter
2007-06-18 21:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by John
Post by Paul Schlyter
....................
....................
Post by s***@nwrain.net
3. Small-C, while not a full implementation, will be useful to those
needing a compiler until full languages are available on ORCA/M.
....and when will *that* happen? ;-)
And what does "full language" mean here? K&R-C as it existed in the
heydays of the Apple II? Or C-89? Or perhaps even C-99?
(from Answers.com )
----- snip snip -------------------------------
Small-C
In computing, Small-C is both a subset of the C programming language,
suitable for resource-limited microcomputers and embedded systems, and
an implementation of that subset. Originally valuable as an early
compiler for microcomputer systems available during the late 1970s and
early 1980s, the implementation has also been useful as an example
simple enough for teaching purposes.
The original compiler, written in Small-C for the Intel 8080 by Ron
Cain, appeared in the May 1980 issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal. James E.
Hendrix improved and extended the original compiler, and wrote The
Small-C Handbook. According to his own recollection, he developed
Small-C partially on a Unix system to which he had access. Small-C was
important for tiny computers in a manner somewhat analogous to the
importance of GCC for larger computers. Just like its Unix
counterparts, the compiler generates assembler code, which then must
be translated to machine code by an available assembler.
---- end of snip -----------
There is more in the article about why people found it interesting.
Well I know all that already -- I also have Henrix book.

But it didn't answer my question. I didn't ask about Small-C - instead
I asked a question about that future "full languages available on ORCA/M".
But I suppose it never materialized and never will....
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/
inxanedev!
2020-10-23 19:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Wow this is ancient, it's so interesting to look at these old conversations. I was literally 2 years old when you guys were talking about C compilers!!
martin.doherty@undisclosed.com
2020-11-02 21:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by inxanedev!
Wow this is ancient, it's so interesting to look at these old conversations. I was literally 2 years old when you guys were talking about C compilers!!
This is the big thing I really like about UseNet. Websites and blogs come and go, but this old plain-text thing is still in some low level of use today, and stretches back continuously to the 1980's and perhaps even earlier for some groups! I feel like, if anybody discovers something about the Apple II, they should stick it into a UseNet post for posterity's sake, so that our children in 2050 will still be able to find the info.

I wonder what is the earliest UseNet post relating to Apple 2 (or 1) that is still accessible today?
awanderin
2020-11-03 06:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@undisclosed.com
Post by inxanedev!
Wow this is ancient, it's so interesting to look at these old
conversations. I was literally 2 years old when you guys were
talking about C compilers!!
This is the big thing I really like about UseNet. Websites and blogs
come and go, but this old plain-text thing is still in some low level
of use today, and stretches back continuously to the 1980's and
perhaps even earlier for some groups! I feel like, if anybody
discovers something about the Apple II, they should stick it into a
UseNet post for posterity's sake, so that our children in 2050 will
still be able to find the info.
I wonder what is the earliest UseNet post relating to Apple 2 (or 1)
that is still accessible today?
There was a recent Hacker News posting about Henry Spencer's Usenet
archive. You can download the whole bit from the '80s and on:

https://usenetarchives.com/

There's a mirror here of the tarballs:
http://www.skrenta.com/rt/utzoo-usenet/

Article 1 from comp.sys.apple (not apple2) was from November 1986.
Article 51 from net.micro.apple is from April 1983.

Those are the earliest articles I've found.
--
--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
D Finnigan
2020-11-03 19:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by awanderin
Post by ***@undisclosed.com
Post by inxanedev!
Wow this is ancient, it's so interesting to look at these old
conversations. I was literally 2 years old when you guys were
talking about C compilers!!
This is the big thing I really like about UseNet. Websites and blogs
come and go, but this old plain-text thing is still in some low level
of use today, and stretches back continuously to the 1980's and
perhaps even earlier for some groups! I feel like, if anybody
discovers something about the Apple II, they should stick it into a
UseNet post for posterity's sake, so that our children in 2050 will
still be able to find the info.
I wonder what is the earliest UseNet post relating to Apple 2 (or 1)
that is still accessible today?
There was a recent Hacker News posting about Henry Spencer's Usenet
I had the utzoo Usenet archives dating back to the 1980s online at the Mac
GUI Vault Usenet archive in fall 2009, over a decade ago.

Anyway, to answer your question, the earliest Apple II posts are found in
net.micro.apple, dating back to spring 1983:
https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=6

and also in net.micro, which dates back almost a year earlier to May 1982:
https://macgui.com/usenet/?stats=26

Apple Pascal I/O (June 1982): https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=26&id=32
--
]DF$
The New Apple II User's Guide:
https://macgui.com/newa2guide/
Scott Alfter
2020-11-03 18:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@undisclosed.com
I wonder what is the earliest UseNet post relating to Apple 2 (or 1)
that is still accessible today?
A couple minutes' searching through Google Groups found this post to
comp.sys.apple (comp.sys.apple2's predecessor) from 6 November 1986:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.sys.apple/before$3A1986-12-1%7Csort:date/comp.sys.apple/54mQgZI8TR0/b8l1Ju_bAB8J

I'd had my IIe not quite a year and a half at that point, and was a
high-school sophomore at an American (DoDDS) high school in what was still
West Germany. Good times. :)

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Jeff Blakeney
2020-11-03 23:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Alfter
I'd had my IIe not quite a year and a half at that point, and was a
high-school sophomore at an American (DoDDS) high school in what was still
West Germany. Good times. :)
You were in Germany in the 80's too? I was in Canadian Forces Base Lahr
from 1983 to 1987. Did grades 11, 12, 13 and stuck around an extra year
and moved back to Canada when my father was posted back to CFB Borden.
My brother and I shared a TRS-80 Color Computer before I moved to
Germany and as he was going to college and not coming with us, I gave
him my half of the computer for his half of our Dungeons and Dragons stuff.

Got an Apple IIe with Disk ][ drive and Monitor II green screen on the
22nd of October, 1983.

My first use of the internet and usenet would have been around 1990.
Scott Alfter
2020-11-04 23:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blakeney
Post by Scott Alfter
I'd had my IIe not quite a year and a half at that point, and was a
high-school sophomore at an American (DoDDS) high school in what was still
West Germany. Good times. :)
You were in Germany in the 80's too? I was in Canadian Forces Base Lahr
from 1983 to 1987. Did grades 11, 12, 13 and stuck around an extra year
and moved back to Canada when my father was posted back to CFB Borden.
My brother and I shared a TRS-80 Color Computer before I moved to
Germany and as he was going to college and not coming with us, I gave
him my half of the computer for his half of our Dungeons and Dragons stuff.
Dad was stationed at Ramstein AB from 1986 to '88. There were two sets of
schools in the area (largest population of Americans outside the United
States at the time); I went to Kaiserslautern. DoDDS had mostly bought into
the Atari 8-bit machines, but K-town had a couple of Apple IIs: a
German-spec IIe that belonged to the Air Force Junior ROTC squadron (that
one caught me out when it swapped Ys and Zs in what I was typing, until I
found the switch under the keyboard to fix it), and a IIGS (the new
hotness!) in the electronics lab. Didn't get to graduate there, though...we
PCS'd from Ramstein to Nellis AFB, and I spent my last year of school in Las
Vegas.

I think we stopped in at Lahr one weekend for gas and lunch while we were
out and about; if not that, then another Canadian base (was there another?).

Military-brat life's a hoot. :)

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
magnusfalkirk
2020-11-05 01:17:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Alfter
I'd had my IIe not quite a year and a half at that point, and was a
high-school sophomore at an American (DoDDS) high school in what was still
West Germany. Good times. :)
You were in Germany in the 80's too? I was in Canadian Forces Base Lahr
from 1983 to 1987. Did grades 11, 12, 13 and stuck around an extra year
and moved back to Canada when my father was posted back to CFB Borden.
My brother and I shared a TRS-80 Color Computer before I moved to
Germany and as he was going to college and not coming with us, I gave
him my half of the computer for his half of our Dungeons and Dragons stuff.
Dad was stationed at Ramstein AB from 1986 to '88. There were two sets of
schools in the area (largest population of Americans outside the United
States at the time); I went to Kaiserslautern. DoDDS had mostly bought into
the Atari 8-bit machines, but K-town had a couple of Apple IIs: a
German-spec IIe that belonged to the Air Force Junior ROTC squadron (that
one caught me out when it swapped Ys and Zs in what I was typing, until I
found the switch under the keyboard to fix it), and a IIGS (the new
hotness!) in the electronics lab. Didn't get to graduate there, though...we
PCS'd from Ramstein to Nellis AFB, and I spent my last year of school in Las
Vegas.
I think we stopped in at Lahr one weekend for gas and lunch while we were
out and about; if not that, then another Canadian base (was there another?).
Military-brat life's a hoot. :)
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
I was stationed at Spangdahlem AB, northwest of Ramstein, from July 83 to September 86. Had an Apple II+ and bought The Newsroom which I used to produce a newsletter from the radar air traffic control facility at Spang for the 52nd Tac Fighter Wing at Spang. I also expanded the memory from 48k to 64k by buying a 16k ram card on the economy.
Jeff Blakeney
2020-11-05 02:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Alfter
Dad was stationed at Ramstein AB from 1986 to '88. There were two
sets of schools in the area (largest population of Americans outside
the United States at the time); I went to Kaiserslautern. DoDDS had
mostly bought into > the Atari 8-bit machines, but K-town had a
couple of Apple IIs: a German-spec IIe that belonged to the Air Force
Junior ROTC squadron (that one caught me out when it swapped Ys and
Zs in what I was typing, until I found the switch under the keyboard
to fix it), and a IIGS (the new hotness!) in the electronics lab.
Didn't get to graduate there, though...we PCS'd from Ramstein to
Nellis AFB, and I spent my last year of school in Las Vegas.
Cool. We overlapped a bit. Don't think I ever got near Ramstein. The
Canadian Forces Exchange, our grocery/department stores, only had
Commodore 64s when I first got there. I was VERY close to getting one
but early in October they got in the IIe machines. I had heard of Apple
computers before but never seen one. Bought a couple magazines and
played with the demo machine in the store and decided I liked it better
than the C64. My parents paid for it, I gave up my weekly allowance and
when I got a summer job, and later a part time job, I paid them back for it.
Post by Scott Alfter
I think we stopped in at Lahr one weekend for gas and lunch while we
were out and about; if not that, then another Canadian base (was
there another?).
There was another base in Baden Baden which was farther north than Lahr.
The only other Canadians in Europe at the time were in Shape, Belgium.
Post by Scott Alfter
Military-brat life's a hoot. :)
Ain't it though? I'm glad to have been brought up that way, though.
I am Rob
2020-11-06 03:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blakeney
Post by Scott Alfter
Military-brat life's a hoot. :)
Ain't it though? I'm glad to have been brought up that way, though.
Funny you guys should talk about being military brats. My unit stopped over at one of Germany's bases for one night on the way to Iran/Iraq for peace keeping in '87.
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