Apple II ROM

Hi Patricia,

Contact Henry at Reactive Computers: 800-284-6782. He builds some ROM
socket hardware adapters for the Apple II, and he should be able to
source those ROMs for you.

- Paul

Post by Patricia Shanahan
Inspired by a History of Computing course I'm auditing, I dug my Apple
II out and powered it up.
It displays a screen with "Apple ][" at the top, otherwise blank. Reset
puts it in the monitor, which works correctly. It fails to enter Basic
or the mini-assembler.
I've used the monitor to display ROM contents. The Monitor ROM, F800 and
up, matches pieces of code in the Reference Manual. The remaining ROMs
contain what looks like junk, and do not match Reference Manual listings.
From the functioning monitor, and good readouts from monitor ROM, I
conclude that the ROM address and data paths work. That makes me think
that the junk data from the other ROMs is due to failure of the ROM
chips themselves.
Is there a source for replacement ROM chips?
Although the computer has no practical use, it has very great
sentimental value as my first personal computer.
Thanks for any help,
Patricia

William Garber

2006-11-01 17:02:43 UTC

"Patricia Shanahan" <***@acm.org> wrote in message news:qh32h.713$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
: Inspired by a History of Computing course I'm auditing, I dug my Apple
: II out and powered it up.
:
: It displays a screen with "Apple ][" at the top, otherwise blank. Reset
: puts it in the monitor, which works correctly. It fails to enter Basic
: or the mini-assembler.
:
: I've used the monitor to display ROM contents. The Monitor ROM, F800 and
: up, matches pieces of code in the Reference Manual. The remaining ROMs
: contain what looks like junk, and do not match Reference Manual listings.

Hi Patricia,

If you haven't already, try lifting both ends of each
of the ROMs up about 1/16" and reseat them. This may
clean the pins and socket contacts good enough to make
better contact.

: From the functioning monitor, and good readouts from monitor ROM, I
: conclude that the ROM address and data paths work. That makes me think
: that the junk data from the other ROMs is due to failure of the ROM
: chips themselves.

Even if there is no contact to one or more data
or address pins, they will still register something,
just not what is being read from or written to them.

: Is there a source for replacement ROM chips?

AFAIK, there are no genuine replacements other than
buying spare boards and keeping the chips out of them.
Adapters to use eproms there are not difficult to make
but I'm not aware of anything under process at the moment.
I haven't been asked to become involved in such a device
as yet. I'd be glad to go ahead and produce some if there
is call for it.

: Although the computer has no practical use, it has very
: great sentimental value as my first personal computer.

Sentimental value should be all that's needed.

William Garber
Email Address - ***@garberstreet.com
Alt. Email - ***@comcast.net
Web address - http://www.garberstreet.com

Patricia Shanahan

2006-11-01 17:41:04 UTC

Post by William Garber
: Inspired by a History of Computing course I'm auditing, I dug my Apple
: II out and powered it up.
: It displays a screen with "Apple ][" at the top, otherwise blank. Reset
: puts it in the monitor, which works correctly. It fails to enter Basic
: or the mini-assembler.
: I've used the monitor to display ROM contents. The Monitor ROM, F800 and
: up, matches pieces of code in the Reference Manual. The remaining ROMs
: contain what looks like junk, and do not match Reference Manual listings.
Hi Patricia,
If you haven't already, try lifting both ends of each
of the ROMs up about 1/16" and reseat them. This may
clean the pins and socket contacts good enough to make
better contact.

I should have mentioned that I did already try that, based on the same
reasoning, unfortunately with no change in results.

Patricia

Michael J. Mahon

2006-11-01 19:07:55 UTC

So typing "Ctrl-B, Return" at the monitor prompt does not get you
to the BASIC prompt?

The original (non-Applesoft) Apple ][ did not initialize BASIC
automatically. It had to be cold started from the keyboard.

Post by Patricia Shanahan
I've used the monitor to display ROM contents. The Monitor ROM, F800 and
up, matches pieces of code in the Reference Manual. The remaining ROMs
contain what looks like junk, and do not match Reference Manual listings.
From the functioning monitor, and good readouts from monitor ROM, I
conclude that the ROM address and data paths work. That makes me think
that the junk data from the other ROMs is due to failure of the ROM
chips themselves.

Although this is possible, it is not a likely failure.

Post by Patricia Shanahan
Is there a source for replacement ROM chips?

The original set of 4 ROMs, Monitor and Integer BASIC, are a
little hard to find. Best bet for the 3 Integer BASIC ROMs is
a "firmware card" with the Integer ROMs installed--they show up
on eBay from time to time.

Post by Patricia Shanahan
Although the computer has no practical use, it has very great
sentimental value as my first personal computer.

I hear you loud and clear, Patricia. ;-)

-michael

NadaNet networking for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

Patricia Shanahan

2006-11-01 22:59:25 UTC

So typing "Ctrl-B, Return" at the monitor prompt does not get you
to the BASIC prompt?

Correct. Also, "F666G" followed by a return does NOT take me to the
mini-assembler.

I am following the directions from the Reference Manual that came with
it, and as far as I remember everything worked the way it said in 1979.

Post by Michael J. Mahon
The original (non-Applesoft) Apple ][ did not initialize BASIC
automatically. It had to be cold started from the keyboard.

Although this is possible, it is not a likely failure.

Can you suggest alternative explanation for the symptoms, or tests I
should do to confirm or reject the ROM hypothesis?

One of my friends, an electronics technician, suggested that some types
of ROM in use in the time period did tend to lose their data with time,
and it is a 27 year old computer. I don't know if that applies to the
ROM used in the Apple II.

Post by Patricia Shanahan
Is there a source for replacement ROM chips?

Thanks, I'll keep my eyes open.

Post by Patricia Shanahan
Although the computer has no practical use, it has very great
sentimental value as my first personal computer.

I hear you loud and clear, Patricia. ;-)
-michael
NadaNet networking for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

Michael J. Mahon

2006-11-02 09:27:07 UTC

So typing "Ctrl-B, Return" at the monitor prompt does not get you
to the BASIC prompt?

Correct. Also, "F666G" followed by a return does NOT take me to the
mini-assembler.

What, exactly, *does* it do when you enter these commands?

Post by Patricia Shanahan
I am following the directions from the Reference Manual that came with
it, and as far as I remember everything worked the way it said in 1979.

Post by Michael J. Mahon
The original (non-Applesoft) Apple ][ did not initialize BASIC
automatically. It had to be cold started from the keyboard.

Although this is possible, it is not a likely failure.

Can you suggest alternative explanation for the symptoms, or tests I
should do to confirm or reject the ROM hypothesis?

You might try listing parts of it using the monitor.

For example, if you list $F666, does it look like the mini-assembler?

Since the monitor is in the same type and vintage ROM, it should
be expected to be in the same general shape as the rest of the
ROMs--which is why I suggested the improbability of their failure.

Post by Patricia Shanahan
One of my friends, an electronics technician, suggested that some types
of ROM in use in the time period did tend to lose their data with time,
and it is a 27 year old computer. I don't know if that applies to the
ROM used in the Apple II.

I certainly doesn't seem to be a common problem.

It is possible to adapt 2716-type ROMs to the Apple ][, and that
would offer a possible means of replacement, as well as a definitive
proof that the ROMs were faulty.

You could also try installing the ROMs in another ][ or ][+ to see
if that moves the problem...

-michael

NadaNet networking for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

schmidtd

2006-11-01 19:09:58 UTC

Post by Patricia Shanahan
It displays a screen with "Apple ][" at the top, otherwise blank.

Do you have any extra cards in any of the slots? You might try
removing all of them (especially a Disk ][ card with no disks attached,
it'll make your machine behave a little like you describe).

Patricia Shanahan

2006-11-01 23:03:13 UTC

Post by schmidtd

Post by Patricia Shanahan
It displays a screen with "Apple ][" at the top, otherwise blank.

Do you have any extra cards in any of the slots? You might try
removing all of them (especially a Disk ][ card with no disks attached,
it'll make your machine behave a little like you describe).

I just took out a serial card, a parallel printer card, and two Disk ][
controllers. Unfortunately, it didn't fix the problem.

There is still a "language card" and I don't remember if it was original
or an add-in. Is it something I should try removing, or something to
leave alone?

Thanks,

Patricia

Patricia Shanahan

2006-11-02 00:51:36 UTC

Post by schmidtd

Post by Patricia Shanahan
It displays a screen with "Apple ][" at the top, otherwise blank.

Do you have any extra cards in any of the slots? You might try
removing all of them (especially a Disk ][ card with no disks attached,
it'll make your machine behave a little like you describe).

I just took out a serial card, a parallel printer card, and two Disk ][
controllers. Unfortunately, it didn't fix the problem.
There is still a "language card" and I don't remember if it was original
or an add-in. Is it something I should try removing, or something to
leave alone?

I tried taking out the language card, and IT DID IT!

My Apple II now goes into Basic on control-B return, just the way it was
supposed to, and did in 1979. I can enter a simple Basic program, and it
runs correctly.

I'm not really worried about diagnosing problems in the added cards,
because at this point I'm more interested in reproducing the original
Apple II experience than in upgrades.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Now for trying to read a cassette tape...]

Patricia

mdj

2006-11-02 05:14:24 UTC

Post by Patricia Shanahan
I'm not really worried about diagnosing problems in the added cards,
because at this point I'm more interested in reproducing the original
Apple II experience than in upgrades.

Be warned - it's addictive, and that language card is the first one
you'll miss when you want to go further :-)

Fortunately language cards are easily sourced components.

Matt

Michael J. Mahon

2006-11-02 09:30:21 UTC

Post by schmidtd

Post by Patricia Shanahan
It displays a screen with "Apple ][" at the top, otherwise blank.

Do you have any extra cards in any of the slots? You might try
removing all of them (especially a Disk ][ card with no disks attached,
it'll make your machine behave a little like you describe).

I just took out a serial card, a parallel printer card, and two Disk ][
controllers. Unfortunately, it didn't fix the problem.
There is still a "language card" and I don't remember if it was original
or an add-in. Is it something I should try removing, or something to
leave alone?

I tried taking out the language card, and IT DID IT!
My Apple II now goes into Basic on control-B return, just the way it was
supposed to, and did in 1979. I can enter a simple Basic program, and it
runs correctly.
I'm not really worried about diagnosing problems in the added cards,
because at this point I'm more interested in reproducing the original
Apple II experience than in upgrades.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
[Now for trying to read a cassette tape...]

Excellent! When I read your message about the RAM card, I was about
to reply that *it* could cause this symptom--but you've already
found that out. ;-)

The RAM card apparently resets into a "selected" state. This is
probably a single chip (74LS74?) on the card.

-michael

NadaNet networking for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

Linards Ticmanis

2006-11-02 22:17:43 UTC

Post by Patricia Shanahan
There is still a "language card" and I don't remember if it was original
or an add-in. Is it something I should try removing, or something to
leave alone?

I tried taking out the language card, and IT DID IT!

Hello Patricia,

[please disregard this if you already know about it]

When you do that, you'll also need to re-fill the RAM chip socket where
the ribbon cable from the language card plugged into the mainboard,
otherwise you'll have only 32K of operating memory rather than 48K.
You'll need to take that chip from the language card which is closest to
the place where the ribbon ends, and insert it into the empty socket on
the motherboard. The notch should point in the same direction as on all
the other chips on the mainboard.

--
Linards Ticmanis

Patricia Shanahan

2006-11-02 22:41:38 UTC

Post by Linards Ticmanis

Post by Patricia Shanahan
There is still a "language card" and I don't remember if it was original
or an add-in. Is it something I should try removing, or something to
leave alone?

I tried taking out the language card, and IT DID IT!

Hello Patricia,
[please disregard this if you already know about it]
When you do that, you'll also need to re-fill the RAM chip socket where
the ribbon cable from the language card plugged into the mainboard,
otherwise you'll have only 32K of operating memory rather than 48K.
You'll need to take that chip from the language card which is closest to
the place where the ribbon ends, and insert it into the empty socket on
the motherboard. The notch should point in the same direction as on all
the other chips on the mainboard.

Thanks. I'll make a note of the information, and use it if I decide to
try anything that needs more than 32K RAM without replacing the language
card.

However, this is mainly an exercise in nostalgia and computer history,
and it started life with only 32K.

Breakout now loads from cassette tape and runs, which was my original
objective.

Patricia

unknown

2006-11-04 05:37:29 UTC

Hello everyone.
I've seem people ask from time to time where they could purchase II/+ ROM's.
The main issue is you need an adaptor to convert 2316 (9316) ROM's to the
more modern 27-series EPROM's or you'll need to find original Apple ROM's.
Some Arcade machines I've been working on have had the same issue and also
use the older ROM's which are no longer available or hard to find.

While doing a little research I found out how to create just such an Adaptor
and will soon be offering it for sale in the Store along with all the Apple
II/+ ROM's. If anyone needs one right away just email.

I like it when projects from other genres cross over! ;-)
--
Henry S. Courbis
www.GSE-Reactive.com
Apple II Series Legacy Hardware - Come take a look at what we have to offer!

2006-11-04 06:29:21 UTC

I figured you had the solution; nice work Henry.

- Paul

Post by unknown
Hello everyone.
I've seem people ask from time to time where they could purchase II/+ ROM's.
The main issue is you need an adaptor to convert 2316 (9316) ROM's to the
more modern 27-series EPROM's or you'll need to find original Apple ROM's.
Some Arcade machines I've been working on have had the same issue and also
use the older ROM's which are no longer available or hard to find.
While doing a little research I found out how to create just such an Adaptor
and will soon be offering it for sale in the Store along with all the Apple
II/+ ROM's. If anyone needs one right away just email.
I like it when projects from other genres cross over! ;-)
--
Henry S. Courbis
www.GSE-Reactive.com
Apple II Series Legacy Hardware - Come take a look at what we have to offer!

Grant Stockly

2006-11-10 06:26:12 UTC

H-Dog,

http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/Default.aspx?tabid=27&art=51101&PN=On

They have PCB picture too.

unknown

2006-11-11 00:08:48 UTC

G-Unit:

That's for the 25-series ROM's. We're dealing with the 23/93-series. Now
go back to those evil Altairs!
--
Henry S. Courbis
www.GSE-Reactive.com
Legacy Hardware and Support - Come take a look at what we have to offer!

Post by Grant Stockly
H-Dog,
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/Default.aspx?tabid=27&art=51101&PN=On
They have PCB picture too.

Grant Stockly

2006-11-11 02:24:22 UTC

The 2532 will work in place of both the 2316s.

You can get the 2532 for $3.49 in qty of 1.

Post by unknown
That's for the 25-series ROM's. We're dealing with the 23/93-series. Now
go back to those evil Altairs!
--
Henry S. Courbis
www.GSE-Reactive.com
Legacy Hardware and Support - Come take a look at what we have to offer!

Post by Grant Stockly
H-Dog,
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/Default.aspx?tabid=27&art=51101&PN=On
They have PCB picture too.

David Wilson

2006-11-11 05:34:17 UTC

Post by Grant Stockly
The 2532 will work in place of both the 2316s.

Both? There are eight possible 2316 ROMs. There are three chip selects
each with active high/low prograrming options. The Apple ][(+) uses two
of those eight - the Rev 7 and later 2316 chargen is 2716 pinout
compatible while the Integer/Applesoft/OldMonitor/AutoStart chips are
all incompatible because of the choice Apple made to use pin 18 as an
active high enable line.

The 2532 has A11 (18), /E (20) & Vpp (21) so will not disable its
output when pin 18 is high.

Grant Stockly

2006-11-12 03:14:54 UTC