OT: Mac Plus and 20SC

[George Parada]

Hi,

I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
it didn't boot.

What might me the reason ?

George

[Bill Garber]

"George Parada" <***@rogers.com> wrote in message news:chZrb.8386$***@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Hi,

I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
it didn't boot.

What might me the reason ?

George

Macs have a system switch that sets the boot drive
prior to shutting down the system. You need to set this
to the drive that you want to boot on the next startup.
The OS's are slightly different so I can't say off-hand
where to do this on version 7.0, but if you check all the
menu options while running, you'll find it.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
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[George Parada]

Hi,

Thank you.

The problem is that Plus doesn't have internal HD and can
only run from 800k
diskette. I have no way of setting the start-up disk to
external hd.

George
m...

Post by George Parada
Hi,
I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
it didn't boot.
What might me the reason ?
George
Macs have a system switch that sets the boot drive
prior to shutting down the system. You need to set this
to the drive that you want to boot on the next startup.
The OS's are slightly different so I can't say off-hand
where to do this on version 7.0, but if you check all the
menu options while running, you'll find it.
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11/6/03

[Bill Garber]

Post by George Parada
Hi,
Thank you.
The problem is that Plus doesn't have internal HD and can
only run from 800k
diskette. I have no way of setting the start-up disk to
external hd.
George

Ah!, I missed that. Set your HD's ID to "0". This should
cause it to boot. Sorry, I forgot that they don't have internal
hard drives by default. Yeah, try ID of "0", and let me know.

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[Dave Althoff Jr]

: "George Parada" <***@rogers.com> wrote in message
: I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
: Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
: I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
: has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
: it didn't boot.

Bill Garber (***@comcast.net) wrote:

: Macs have a system switch that sets the boot drive
: prior to shutting down the system. You need to set this
: to the drive that you want to boot on the next startup.
: The OS's are slightly different so I can't say off-hand
: where to do this on version 7.0, but if you check all the
: menu options while running, you'll find it.

I thought it was a control panel item..."Set Startup" or something like that.

A thought...is this a PRAM setting that would be lost when the battery
craters? I thought the Mac would boot from any available startup disk and
that set startup was only needed if it couldn't find a bootable disk.

Hmmm...Do you have another system available? You can download System 7
from Apple's web site, and I think one of the disks is a bare-bones
startup disk...may even be 800k, I'm not sure...

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

[Salvador Limones]

Check this:
http://www.lowendmac.com/compact/plus.shtml

Alex

[Wayne Stewart]

Post by George Parada
Hi,
I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
it didn't boot.
What might me the reason ?
George

If the drive is the only device then it doesn't matter which SCSI id
you use, as long as it's not 7.
Even if the installed System software is unsuitable for the Mac Plus you
should at least start to boot, so the two most likely reasons are:

Is the drive terminated?
Is the system folder "blessed"? Unfortunately you need a system floppy
or another Mac to check this. If you have anothe Mac available then
check the system folder to see if it has an icon on it

Wayne

This isn't the best place to ask Mac questions as it's not a Mac
newsgroup but an Apple II one. The Mac groups start with comp.sys.mac.

[Bill Garber]

Post by Wayne Stewart

Post by George Parada
Hi,
I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.

< snip>

Post by Wayne Stewart
If the drive is the only device then it doesn't matter which SCSI id

< snip>

Post by Wayne Stewart
check the system folder to see if it has an icon on it
Wayne
This isn't the best place to ask Mac questions as it's not a Mac
newsgroup but an Apple II one. The Mac groups start with comp.sys.mac.

Actually, this is probably the most logical place to ask a
Mac Plus question since many of the Mac newsgroups
don't cater to vintage Macs these days. Also because a
lot of people in this group have Vintage Macs.

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[Wayne Stewart]

Post by Bill Garber
Actually, this is probably the most logical place to ask a
Mac Plus question since many of the Mac newsgroups
don't cater to vintage Macs these days. Also because a
lot of people in this group have Vintage Macs.

Not really. It's a general Mac question that most experienced Mac
users could deal with. The Mac groups do mostly have questions on
more currant Macs but that's mostly because a very small percentage
of people are still using the older hardware as their main computer
now. Still questions on the the early Macs do get asked and answered
in the Mac conferences.

Wayne

[Wayne Stewart]

Forgot to mention. You're letting the hard drive spin up before
turning on the Mac?
Do you get a disk on screen with a flashing question mark?

[George Parada]

Yes, I start hd first and Plus after 30 seconds.
I get disk with ? on the screen.

George

Post by Wayne Stewart
Forgot to mention. You're letting the hard drive spin up

before

Post by Wayne Stewart
turning on the Mac?
Do you get a disk on screen with a flashing question mark?

[George Parada]

Post by Wayne Stewart
If the drive is the only device then it doesn't matter

which SCSI id

Post by Wayne Stewart
you use, as long as it's not 7.
Even if the installed System software is unsuitable for

the Mac Plus you

Post by Wayne Stewart
should at least start to boot, so the two most likely

reasons are:

Unfortunately, the system is OS 7.

Post by Wayne Stewart
Is the drive terminated?

Yes, I have SCSI terminator mounted.

Post by Wayne Stewart
Is the system folder "blessed"? Unfortunately you need a

system floppy

Post by Wayne Stewart
or another Mac to check this. If you have anothe Mac

available then

Post by Wayne Stewart
check the system folder to see if it has an icon on it

The HD works fine with other older Macs I have.

[Wayne Stewart]

Post by George Parada
The HD works fine with other older Macs I have.

Do you mean that you can see the hard drive with the older Mac or
that you can boot off the 20SC?

Wayne

[George Parada]

It works with other macs as a hard drive but I didn't try
booting from it.
I know it was used with other Plus and it booted from it.

Post by Wayne Stewart

Post by George Parada
The HD works fine with other older Macs I have.

Do you mean that you can see the hard drive with the older

Mac or

Post by Wayne Stewart
that you can boot off the 20SC?
Wayne

[Wayne Stewart]

Post by George Parada
It works with other macs as a hard drive but I didn't try
booting from it.
I know it was used with other Plus and it booted from it.

If it works with another Mac then there likely isn't a
hardware problem with the drive. Which could mean the
Mac Plus isn't recognizing SCSI.
The other, more likely possibility is a system folder that
isn't blessed. The only way to check for that is look at the
system folder and see if it looks like a plain folder or if
it has an icon on it.
If you know someone with a Mac that has a floppy drive, you
could ask them to make you an 800k boot floppy. That would
let you see if the hard drive was being recognized or not.
They can download a disk image from Apples site.

Wayne

[Dave Althoff Jr]

Wayne Stewart (***@telus.dotnet) wrote:


: George Parada wrote:
: > It works with other macs as a hard drive but I didn't try
: > booting from it.
: > I know it was used with other Plus and it booted from it.

: If it works with another Mac then there likely isn't a
: hardware problem with the drive. Which could mean the
: Mac Plus isn't recognizing SCSI.
: The other, more likely possibility is a system folder that
: isn't blessed. The only way to check for that is look at the
: system folder and see if it looks like a plain folder or if
: it has an icon on it.
: If you know someone with a Mac that has a floppy drive, you
: could ask them to make you an 800k boot floppy. That would
: let you see if the hard drive was being recognized or not.
: They can download a disk image from Apples site.

If your other older machine is running an OS that will work on the Mac
Plus, try renaming the System Folder on the HD (assuming there is one),
then just copying the entire system folder from a working HD to the drive
you're working with. That way you'll know you're moving a working system.
It may not be an optimal install for the plus, but if it at least tries
to boot then you'll know you have a working SCSI chain!

--Dave Althoff, ][.

[Ned Ludd]

All this Mac discussion prompts me to ask: what is the procedure for
starting a new usenet group? I think a 68K-only mac newsgroup would be a
great thing to have since the other mac groups generally don't want to
hear about anything that ancient...

-simon

[Phil Dumpster]

Post by George Parada
Hi,
I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
it didn't boot.
What might me the reason ?
George

If the drive activity LED isn't flickering, it sounds like a drive termination
problem to me.

The "driver" for a particular SCSI drive is kept on the drive itself, loaded
from the beginning of the disk. If the Mac can't read this, or the driver isn't
present, or its corrupted, then you can't access that drive.

If you know someone with a later Mac which is up and running, take the drive
to them and have them try it.

[Mikael Ljungberg]

Hi!!!

When I got my Mac Plus I did like this.

I took one of mine Classic, attached a external SCSI box with a 40 MB
SCSI-1 disk inside, formatted it with HD-SC-Formattern or any other
HD-Util. Then did I either copy all System 7.1 disks into the Classics
harddrive, or hide Finder in my Classic then Boot with System 7.1 First
Installation Disk and installed the System on the external SCSI disk.
And even copied some useful software or installed some software after
the System installation. Then did I restore the Clasic Mac, shut off
Classic and connected the harddrive to the Plus, and the system booted
up without any problem and works fine. The best is to have the boot
harddrive at ID:0, but Mac's boot from any drive unless it's not ID:7
coz ID:7 is the SCSI controller inside the computer. The external SCSI
boc must have an Terminator on the upper contact and the SCSI cable
connected to the lower contact.

Good Luck and do like I did, or mail me if you need some more
information.

Best Regards

Mikael Lj

Post by George Parada
Hi,
I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
it didn't boot.
What might me the reason ?
George

[Igor]

Post by George Parada
I have Mac Plus 1mb and 20SC hd.
Both work alone but Mac won't boot from it.
I don't have any system disk for Plus but hd
has system 7.0 on it. I set scsi id to 0,1,2,3 and
it didn't boot.
What might me the reason ?

Hi, I think the Plus can't boot system 7.
I've had the same problem.
You shoul try with system 6.*

Igor

[Igor]

Post by Igor
Hi, I think the Plus can't boot system 7.
I've had the same problem.
You shoul try with system 6.*

but, I've made a quick search over the net and it seems that I'm wrong.
The Plus supports system 7.
I also have not been able to boot a Plus from a sc20 HD with system 7 on
it and someone told me that the problem was with system 7. Now I realize
that it wasn't a good hint. sorry.

Igor

[Wayne Stewart]

Post by Igor
but, I've made a quick search over the net and it seems that I'm wrong.
The Plus supports system 7.
I also have not been able to boot a Plus from a sc20 HD with system 7 on
it and someone told me that the problem was with system 7. Now I realize
that it wasn't a good hint. sorry.

I've booted a Mac Plus off an SC20 using OS 7.5.5.

Wayne

[Bill Garber]

"Wayne Stewart" <***@telus.dotnet> wrote in message news:w0NDb.22058$***@edtnps84...
:
: Igor wrote:
:
: > but, I've made a quick search over the net and it seems that
I'm wrong.
: > The Plus supports system 7.
: > I also have not been able to boot a Plus from a sc20 HD with
system 7 on
: > it and someone told me that the problem was with system 7.
Now I realize
: > that it wasn't a good hint. sorry.
:
: I've booted a Mac Plus off an SC20 using OS 7.5.5.
:
: Wayne

Is everyone Low-Level formatting before
partitioning with the OS of Seven?

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[Wayne Stewart]

Post by Bill Garber
Is everyone Low-Level formatting before
partitioning with the OS of Seven?

Partitioning, no. Usually unless a drive has problems I just initialize
it and test it. If it fails testing I'll try low level formatting it.
On Macs I prefer FWB. On Apple IIs I prefer to use a ramfasts built-in
utilities.

Wayne

[Bill Garber]

"Wayne Stewart" <***@telus.dotnet> wrote in message news:_3SDb.2$***@edtnps84...
:
: Bill Garber wrote:
:
: > Is everyone Low-Level formatting before
: > partitioning with the OS of Seven?
:
: Partitioning, no. Usually unless a drive has problems I just
initialize
: it and test it. If it fails testing I'll try low level
formatting it.
: On Macs I prefer FWB. On Apple IIs I prefer to use a ramfasts
built-in
: utilities.
:
: Wayne

Why did you answer Wayne? Yours is working. ;-)
The drive that won't boot OS7 may be having
an intermittent signal loss somewhere, possibly
a chip or cable not seated right, or just dirt.
Could be the drive itself. Are they SCSI or IDE,
or MFM/RLL?

BTW, would you happen to have any technical info,
schematics, hand-drawings, scans, pinouts, etc...
that I can drag out of you? Specifically RamWorks
II and III, Slinky, or RamFactor? Thanks.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
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[Wayne Stewart]

Post by Bill Garber
Why did you answer Wayne? Yours is working. ;-)
The drive that won't boot OS7 may be having
an intermittent signal loss somewhere, possibly
a chip or cable not seated right, or just dirt.
Could be the drive itself. Are they SCSI or IDE,
or MFM/RLL?

The SC20 was SCSI and original drive was a Seagate ST-225N. The case
is designed to take either a 5.25 or a 3.5" hard drive. The original
drive is really slow so replacing it with almost anything is a big
improvement.

Post by Bill Garber
BTW, would you happen to have any technical info,
schematics, hand-drawings, scans, pinouts, etc...
that I can drag out of you? Specifically RamWorks
II and III, Slinky, or RamFactor? Thanks.

I'm not sure what I have in that area. I'll take a look as soon as
possible but I'm in the middle of trying to sort out about 7 truck
loads and 8 car loads of Mac stuff, awkward in a 1 bedroom apartment
that already had a hundred Apple IIs and 20 Macs. I have a few blank
cards but I think they're fairly early ones like the Saturn 128,
should scan those. The person I think likely to have the most technical
info on those cards would be Tony Diaz. Talking him into spending the
time might be the hard part.

Wayne

[Salvador Limones]

Last week I bought"FWB's Guide To Storage" by Norman Fong. Along with
the other stuff, the author mentions several problems with the original
Plus:
1. "The Plus cannot properly handle the SCSI Req/Ack handshaking
protocol because it has no hardware line for relaying handshaking or
interrupts."
The handshaking is being performed in software (by the drivers) and is
very slow. The Mac SE and later have hardware handshaking.
My comment: Every considerably "modern" HD is too fast for the Plus.

2. "The Mac Plus does not include internal termination because it has no
internal SCSI connector. According to Apple, the devices closest to and
farthest away from the Macintosh Plus should be terminated. But if there
is only one peripheral attached to the Plus, only that device needs a
terminator.

Alex