Discussion:
Applesoft Basic IDE
(too old to reply)
Eric
2003-10-03 07:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
programming on Apple IIe? I have downloaded and tried Beagle's GPLE. But I
don't have the doc. I don't even know how to renumber the line number. There
may be other/better "IDE". I would also appreciate if you can recommend a
Basic compiler.

Eric
Andy McFadden
2003-10-03 16:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
programming on Apple IIe? I have downloaded and tried Beagle's GPLE. But I
don't have the doc. I don't even know how to renumber the line number. There
may be other/better "IDE". I would also appreciate if you can recommend a
Basic compiler.
PLE/GPLE is probably your best bet. You can occasionally find the docs
up for auction, or in various forms on the web, such as:
http://textfiles.group.lt/apple/DOCUMENTATION/ple

Renumbering of lines can be done with a utility on the system master disk.
--
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Scott Alfter
2003-10-03 18:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
programming on Apple IIe?
Nibble published a fairly decent editor a few years back...IIRC, it was
called "Applesoft Turbo Editor." It allows full-screen editing,
forward/reverse scrolling, search, and some other stuff I don't recall.
I've used it ever since it was published. (My magazines are at home and I'm
at work right now...otherwise, I'd look it up.)

_/_ Scott Alfter (address in header doesn't receive mail)
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Paul Schlyter
2003-10-04 11:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
programming on Apple IIe?
You could try Bob SC's good ol' ES-CAPE (Extended S-C Applesoft Editor)
from 1982. Comes with S-C Assembler source.... available freely here:

http://home.tiscali.se/pausch/apple2/dsk.html
http://stjarnhimlen.se/apple2/dsk.html

S-C Assembler Disk images: (all of them in one file)

SCASM2_4.DSK S-C Assembler II ver 4.0 (1980) #4-2181
SCA_6809.DSK S-C Assembler II ver 4 (1980) - 6809 ver #6809-04
SCMASM10.DSK S-C Macro Assembler 1.0 (1982) #M-5002
SCM_6809.DSK S-C Macro Assembler 6809 (1982) #6809-10
SCM_Z80.DSK S-C Macro Assembler Z-80 (1982) #Z-80-5
SCM_Z80B.DSK S-C Macro Assembler Z-80 (1982) #Z-80-17
SCM_68K.DSK S-C Macro Assembler 68000 (1982) #68000-13
SC_XREF.DSK S-C Cross Reference Utility with source (1983) #CRS-12
SCMASM11.DSK S-C Macro Assembler 1.1 (1983) #U-168
SCMASM20.DSK S-C Macro Assembler 2.0 (1984) #T-1047
SCSRC20.DSK S-C Macro Assembler Source Code 2.0 (1985) #SCD-1006
SCPRO20.DSK S-C Macro Assembler 2.0 for ProDOS 1.1.1 (1985) #P-1098
SCREENED.DSK Screen Editor for S-C Macro Asm (Mike Laumer 1983) #SE-1027
ES-CAPE.DSK Extended S-C Applesoft Editor (1982) #E-1298
ES-CAPE2.DSK Es-Cape 2.0 pre-release copy #7
AAL-8602.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-02 #18
AAL-8603.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-03 #20
AAL-8604.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-04 #18
AAL-8605.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-05 #2
AAL-8606.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-06 #25
AAL-8607.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-07 #6
AAL-8608.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-08 #29
AAL-8609.DSK Apple Assembly Line Source Disk, 1986-09 #26
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/
http://home.tiscali.se/pausch/
Bill Garber
2003-10-03 18:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
Hi,
Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
programming on Apple IIe? I have downloaded and tried Beagle's GPLE. But I
don't have the doc. I don't even know how to renumber the line number. There
may be other/better "IDE". I would also appreciate if you can recommend a
Basic compiler.
Eric
I have Neil Konzen's GPLE if you'd like to try it,
I can email it to you. I didn't make the disk and try
it, but it's a good image. One of many I have a few
GB of that is good. Anyway, I'm looking for that
AppleSoft Turbo Editor someone mentioned.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



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Eric
2003-10-03 23:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to Andy, Scott and Bill who replied.

I have a copy of GPLE and also found a copy of the doc at
http://textfiles.group.lt/apple/DOCUMENTATION/gple

Like Bill, I am also interested in Applesoft Turbo Editor. If anyone has an
image, please send it to me.
--
Eric
REMOVE second 'L' from my email address to get my actual address.
Post by Eric
Hi,
Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
programming on Apple IIe? I have downloaded and tried Beagle's GPLE. But I
don't have the doc. I don't even know how to renumber the line number. There
may be other/better "IDE". I would also appreciate if you can recommend a
Basic compiler.
Eric
Michael J. Mahon
2003-10-04 00:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
Thanks to Andy, Scott and Bill who replied.
I have a copy of GPLE and also found a copy of the doc at
http://textfiles.group.lt/apple/DOCUMENTATION/gple
Like Bill, I am also interested in Applesoft Turbo Editor. If anyone has an
image, please send it to me.
I don't know whether you saw my response or not, but Program Writer
is also a full-screen, scrolling editor, with somthing of the style of
Appleworks. It is my preferred Applesoft editor.

It and its documentation are available on Asimov. It is ProDOS-based.

-michael

Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Bill Garber
2003-10-04 01:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by Eric
Thanks to Andy, Scott and Bill who replied.
I have a copy of GPLE and also found a copy of the doc at
http://textfiles.group.lt/apple/DOCUMENTATION/gple
Like Bill, I am also interested in Applesoft Turbo Editor. If anyone has an
image, please send it to me.
I don't know whether you saw my response or not, but Program Writer
is also a full-screen, scrolling editor, with somthing of the style of
Appleworks. It is my preferred Applesoft editor.
It and its documentation are available on Asimov. It is ProDOS-based.
Gotta agree with Michael on that, but since I'm going straight
for the throat and trying to work in assembler from the git-go,
I'm not using it. By the way, I have downloaded everything up
to a month ago from Asimov and much of Ground, if anyone
needs and hates to search, let me know.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 9/29/03
Eric
2003-10-05 05:59:14 UTC
Permalink
I didn't receive yr previous reponse on this topic. I wonder why sometimes I
miss a few news here and there. Could be my ISP's news server.

I have downloaded Program Writer and will try it soon.

Thanks Michael.

Eric
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by Eric
Thanks to Andy, Scott and Bill who replied.
I have a copy of GPLE and also found a copy of the doc at
http://textfiles.group.lt/apple/DOCUMENTATION/gple
Like Bill, I am also interested in Applesoft Turbo Editor. If anyone has an
image, please send it to me.
I don't know whether you saw my response or not, but Program Writer
is also a full-screen, scrolling editor, with somthing of the style of
Appleworks. It is my preferred Applesoft editor.
It and its documentation are available on Asimov. It is ProDOS-based.
-michael
Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Eric
2003-10-05 13:17:24 UTC
Permalink
This Program Writer is great! I don't think I need to search any more. Just
make sure you download version 2.0 (or later). I tried version 1.0 but found
some 'bugs'. Apple-0 command is not working, couldn't type anything from a
blank new page, etc.

Once again, thanks Michael.

Eric
Post by Eric
I didn't receive yr previous reponse on this topic. I wonder why sometimes I
miss a few news here and there. Could be my ISP's news server.
I have downloaded Program Writer and will try it soon.
Thanks Michael.
Eric
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by Eric
Thanks to Andy, Scott and Bill who replied.
I have a copy of GPLE and also found a copy of the doc at
http://textfiles.group.lt/apple/DOCUMENTATION/gple
Like Bill, I am also interested in Applesoft Turbo Editor. If anyone
has
Post by Eric
an
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by Eric
image, please send it to me.
I don't know whether you saw my response or not, but Program Writer
is also a full-screen, scrolling editor, with somthing of the style of
Appleworks. It is my preferred Applesoft editor.
It and its documentation are available on Asimov. It is ProDOS-based.
-michael
Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Michael J. Mahon
2003-10-06 05:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
This Program Writer is great! I don't think I need to search any more. Just
make sure you download version 2.0 (or later). I tried version 1.0 but found
some 'bugs'. Apple-0 command is not working, couldn't type anything from a
blank new page, etc.
Once again, thanks Michael.
Glad you like it as much as I do. ;-)

Loading the "language card" (LC) version has been part of my Applesoft
startup program for many years.

-michael

Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Dave Althoff Jr
2003-10-06 22:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Eric (***@hotmail.com) wrote:
: Hi,

: Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
: programming on Apple IIe? I have downloaded and tried Beagle's GPLE. But I
: don't have the doc. I don't even know how to renumber the line number. There
: may be other/better "IDE". I would also appreciate if you can recommend a
: Basic compiler.

Personally, I swore by GPLE and swore at Program Writer.

The nice thing about GPLE is that unless you're fiddling around with the
KSW/CSW vectors or other useful hooks, it is transparent to the programmer
until you need it.

I used to use GPLE all the time (and PLE before it!) but got out of that
habit when I started doing programs that all started with...

1 TEXT:HOME:PRINT:PRINT CHR$(4);"PR#3":PRINT:PRINT:HOME

That one line of code would, of course, effectively kill GPLE, as PR# resets
the CSW and KSW vectors. I found that to be a bit annoying...but a nice
feature of GPLE is that RESET would re-hook GPLE and set the 80-column
screen. GPLE provided some effective fixes for some Apple programming
environment glitches (PLE, for instance, enabled Esc-IJKM screen movement
on an Apple ][; GPLE fixed text copying over inverse characters on a ][e).
It just takes some discipline to keep from disconnecting it.

I did find a bug in GPLE, though...not really a bug, but a program
interaction problem. It seems that running GPLE with certain accelerated
versions of DOS 3.3 on an 80-column screen will blow up the CATALOG
command so that you get the header ("DISK VOLUME 254") but no file
listing. I don't remember if this was under Pronto-DOS or something else.
It worked fine under 'clean' DOS 3.3, and it always worked fine on the
40-column screen.

--Dave Althoff, ][.
Applesoft Ace since circa. 1982...
--
/-\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /X\__ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ _/XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
Michael J. Mahon
2003-10-07 01:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Althoff Jr
: Hi,
: Can anyone recommend me a good equivalent "IDE" for Applesoft Basic
: programming on Apple IIe? I have downloaded and tried Beagle's GPLE. But I
: don't have the doc. I don't even know how to renumber the line number. There
: may be other/better "IDE". I would also appreciate if you can recommend a
: Basic compiler.
Personally, I swore by GPLE and swore at Program Writer.
The nice thing about GPLE is that unless you're fiddling around with the
KSW/CSW vectors or other useful hooks, it is transparent to the programmer
until you need it.
I used to use GPLE all the time (and PLE before it!) but got out of that
habit when I started doing programs that all started with...
1 TEXT:HOME:PRINT:PRINT CHR$(4);"PR#3":PRINT:PRINT:HOME
That one line of code would, of course, effectively kill GPLE, as PR# resets
the CSW and KSW vectors. I found that to be a bit annoying...but a nice
feature of GPLE is that RESET would re-hook GPLE and set the 80-column
screen. GPLE provided some effective fixes for some Apple programming
environment glitches (PLE, for instance, enabled Esc-IJKM screen movement
on an Apple ][; GPLE fixed text copying over inverse characters on a ][e).
It just takes some discipline to keep from disconnecting it.
I did find a bug in GPLE, though...not really a bug, but a program
interaction problem. It seems that running GPLE with certain accelerated
versions of DOS 3.3 on an 80-column screen will blow up the CATALOG
command so that you get the header ("DISK VOLUME 254") but no file
listing. I don't remember if this was under Pronto-DOS or something else.
It worked fine under 'clean' DOS 3.3, and it always worked fine on the
40-column screen.
I'm curious about what caused you trouble with Program Writer. It's easy
to enter with &&, and it sets 80-column mode. I've never used it on
anything earlier than a //e, and I seldom, if ever, use embedded inverse
or control characters (though I think it can handle them).

Frankly, I've seen very little comparative treatment of the few Applesoft
editors, and would like to know more. Of course, there's always the
fundamental problem with any editor comparison: whichever one you've
used most is "best" because none of the others uses the same
familiar command keys. ;-)

-michael

Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Dave Althoff Jr
2003-10-07 13:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Michael J. Mahon (***@aol.com) wrote:
: Dave Althoff Jr wrote:

: >Personally, I swore by GPLE and swore at Program Writer.

: I'm curious about what caused you trouble with Program Writer. It's easy
: to enter with &&, and it sets 80-column mode. I've never used it on
: anything earlier than a //e, and I seldom, if ever, use embedded inverse
: or control characters (though I think it can handle them).

I never used those, either...I thought embedding control characters was a
bit sloppy and/or lazy. All those MicroSPARC programs that had that line...

nn D$ = "" : REM THERE IS A CONTROL-D IN THERE

seemed like it was counter-productive...why not just use...

nn D$ = CHR$(4)

Anyway, I never liked Program Writer because it was based on a completely
different method of writing code than I learned to use in Applesoft. For
me, the real beauty of an interpreted BASIC is that you can instantly
pound out code, test it, pound out more, test things directly from the
command prompt, stick them into the program, and move on to something
else. Since Applesoft is program-line based, I never had much use for a
screen-based editor, and more often than not, it just got in the way.

Program Writer is good if you're a programmer who sits down, writes a
whole program, tests it, then debugs it. If you can stand to work in
Pascal, then Program Writer is probably fine. But my programming style is
better suited to GPLE.

: Frankly, I've seen very little comparative treatment of the few Applesoft
: editors, and would like to know more. Of course, there's always the
: fundamental problem with any editor comparison: whichever one you've
: used most is "best" because none of the others uses the same
: familiar command keys. ;-)

Yes, and I think preferred workflow is important as well. I always loved
programming in Applesoft because it, and a few other BASICs I've worked
with (notably Radio Shack Level II...) are interpreted and allow for
instant feedback. These days, I generally just use Apple's built-in
"editor" because that way I don't have to hunt up a disk or wait for the
editor to load. I'm not writing major applications anymore, just little
tools that are less elaborate and a lot easier to troubleshoot... 8-)

--Dave Althoff, ][.
--
/-\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /X\__ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ _/XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
Michael J. Mahon
2003-10-07 20:28:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Althoff Jr
: >Personally, I swore by GPLE and swore at Program Writer.
: I'm curious about what caused you trouble with Program Writer. It's easy
: to enter with &&, and it sets 80-column mode. I've never used it on
: anything earlier than a //e, and I seldom, if ever, use embedded inverse
: or control characters (though I think it can handle them).
I never used those, either...I thought embedding control characters was a
bit sloppy and/or lazy. All those MicroSPARC programs that had that line...
nn D$ = "" : REM THERE IS A CONTROL-D IN THERE
seemed like it was counter-productive...why not just use...
nn D$ = CHR$(4)
I agree compleely.
Post by Dave Althoff Jr
Anyway, I never liked Program Writer because it was based on a completely
different method of writing code than I learned to use in Applesoft. For
me, the real beauty of an interpreted BASIC is that you can instantly
pound out code, test it, pound out more, test things directly from the
command prompt, stick them into the program, and move on to something
else. Since Applesoft is program-line based, I never had much use for a
screen-based editor, and more often than not, it just got in the way.
Program Writer is good if you're a programmer who sits down, writes a
whole program, tests it, then debugs it. If you can stand to work in
Pascal, then Program Writer is probably fine. But my programming style is
better suited to GPLE.
I've never seriously used GPLE, having only tried it a few times many
years ago on my ][+.

But I'm still not sure I understand your issue with Program Writer's
work flow. You edit a program, hit OA-Q and RUN, then to edit
you type &&. Just the ease of a scrollable listing is enough for
me, even without editing! ;-)

-michael

Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Eric
2003-10-09 14:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Michael,

Is there an easier way than Apple-Q to quit to test run then typing && to
get back? And to continue to code with auto line numbering, each time I
return to the editor I have to place cursor to the last line and Apple-A
again.

Eric
Post by Michael J. Mahon
Post by Dave Althoff Jr
: >Personally, I swore by GPLE and swore at Program Writer.
: I'm curious about what caused you trouble with Program Writer. It's easy
: to enter with &&, and it sets 80-column mode. I've never used it on
: anything earlier than a //e, and I seldom, if ever, use embedded inverse
: or control characters (though I think it can handle them).
I never used those, either...I thought embedding control characters was a
bit sloppy and/or lazy. All those MicroSPARC programs that had that line...
nn D$ = "" : REM THERE IS A CONTROL-D IN THERE
seemed like it was counter-productive...why not just use...
nn D$ = CHR$(4)
I agree compleely.
Post by Dave Althoff Jr
Anyway, I never liked Program Writer because it was based on a completely
different method of writing code than I learned to use in Applesoft. For
me, the real beauty of an interpreted BASIC is that you can instantly
pound out code, test it, pound out more, test things directly from the
command prompt, stick them into the program, and move on to something
else. Since Applesoft is program-line based, I never had much use for a
screen-based editor, and more often than not, it just got in the way.
Program Writer is good if you're a programmer who sits down, writes a
whole program, tests it, then debugs it. If you can stand to work in
Pascal, then Program Writer is probably fine. But my programming style is
better suited to GPLE.
I've never seriously used GPLE, having only tried it a few times many
years ago on my ][+.
But I'm still not sure I understand your issue with Program Writer's
work flow. You edit a program, hit OA-Q and RUN, then to edit
you type &&. Just the ease of a scrollable listing is enough for
me, even without editing! ;-)
-michael
Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Michael J. Mahon
2003-10-09 17:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
Is there an easier way than Apple-Q to quit to test run then typing && to
get back? And to continue to code with auto line numbering, each time I
return to the editor I have to place cursor to the last line and Apple-A
again.
Not that I know of--though OA-9 is the quick way to get to the last
line, but I expect you know that.

-michael

Check out amazing quality sound for 8-bit Apples on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Dave Althoff Jr
2003-10-09 18:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Michael J. Mahon (***@aol.com) wrote:
: Eric asked:

: >Is there an easier way than Apple-Q to quit to test run then typing && to
: >get back? And to continue to code with auto line numbering, each time I
: >return to the editor I have to place cursor to the last line and Apple-A
: >again.

: Not that I know of--though OA-9 is the quick way to get to the last
: line, but I expect you know that.

Actually, there is a quicker way to test run...

{Esc}R <linenumber>{Return} 8-)

Best of all, and I think this is probably ultimately why I preferred GPLE,
the code you just wrote stays on the screen, if the code in question
doesn't mung the screen...

And I rarely used auto line numbering. Early on I used it, but the more I
wrote, the less I used it.

Well, I already admitted that my workflow was a little unusual. Probably
affected by the fact that I rarely if ever wrote anything down.

--Dave Althoff, ][.
--
/-\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /X\__ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ _/XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
Peter Watson
2003-10-08 16:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Althoff Jr
I never used those, either...I thought embedding control characters was a
bit sloppy and/or lazy. All those MicroSPARC programs that had that line...
nn D$ = "" : REM THERE IS A CONTROL-D IN THERE
seemed like it was counter-productive...why not just use...
nn D$ = CHR$(4)
From memory, it was a style legacy from the Apple Integer BASIC days. It's a
long time ago now, but did Integer BASIC have the CHR$() function?
Post by Dave Althoff Jr
: >Personally, I swore by GPLE and swore at Program Writer.
GPLE was my choice for many years (from well before Program Writer was
written). It was simply brilliant, especially if you took advantage of the
macros. And I remember being less than impressed the first time I saw
Program Writer. However, in the end GPLE was still a *LINE* editor.

Eventually I took on some contract work for a largish number of Applesoft
programs, and I bit the bullet and started using Program Writer. There were
a couple of things that I missed, but the 80-20 rule applied - I was 80%
better off for losing 20% of things I liked.

But it wasn't so bad anyway, because it was entirely possible to run both
GPLE *AND* Program Writer at the same time! Do the broad-brush, big-picture
editing in Program Writer, and down-and-dirty Applesoft run-and-edit stuff
using GPLE. The overhead meant it couldn't be done with every program, but
that was true of either editor by itself.
--
Peter Watson
-- Write to MSDOS disks on the Apple IIgs?
-- Impossible! ;-)
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